DUST Search - how to repare cloak field

Edgar Reinhart wrote:

I'm a bit of a newberry at the whole Dust experience...... 3mil SP and on the whole still running Militia gear so EVERYTHING seems OP to me! I'm kind of enjoying myself and at the moment want to keep grinding away. I'm therefore not well versed in the ongoing back and forth issues with balance and can therefore only comment on how the game is playing for me at this moment in time.

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I don't think scouts, cloaks or shotguns are OP or unbalanced at the moment but I do think the scout, shotgun, cloak as a combination is. High Speed, Wide Scanner Radius, OHK ability and zero visibility on most scanners seems to me to be too much of a win, win, win, win combo. I know that they are lower on HP etc but armour modules appear, on the whole, to make that almost a non problem.

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I'd like to see the need to specialise fits more become the way around these problems. Rather than nerfing, boosting, anything make it down to choice and play style by pushing people towards certain fits.

For example.
If someone is running a cloaked, heavily damped scout, then great, but loose them their shotgun. Sidearms and knives only giving you a silent stealth assassin type character. They have speed/ electronic and optical stealth/ good situational awareness but less firepower, although still a OHK with knives.

If they want the shotgun then they loose the cloak but can still run full dampeners and precision mods meaning that they are still unscannable by 90% of other players have great situational awareness and speed but need to think more about sneaking around. They have speed, electronic stealth and the ability to OHK but have to pick and choose their sneak attacks more carefully / out manoeuvre their targets. These guys make active scanners more important again.

If you want to run a shotgun wielding armour tanked scout then fine for that too but you loose the cloak and dampening meaning that you are visible and more scannable but can take and dish out a lot of damage.

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Maybe high SP well built Proto players can run the shotgun cloak combo?

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This would then also make other classes more relevant again. Need to attack a defended objective? Tweak the assault suit slightly so that it can, for example, run a Mass Driver and a Shotgun/SMG combo (maybe too much I admit....) but then they are ideal for area denial and clearing up stragglers without overlapping a scout or being able to engage at long range. Commando's could then sit in the middle of the two with the ability to operate a bit more stealthily behind enemy lines, dropping uplinks etc but with less firepower than an assault but more stealth and less stealth than a scout but more, and more varied firepower.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4712	Posted - 2014.03.31 06:31:00 - [1] - Quote How to repair cloaks: 1. Rebalance medium suits. At the moment, Logis are both the equipment users AND the adaptable combat suits. Logis should be the equipment users and Assaults should be the adaptable combat suits. Reduce slots on Logis and add them to Assaults, but give Logis a buff to HP to help offset the loss of adaptability. Add PG and CPU so that Assaults can be fitted effectively, because right now, they struggle with that more often than they should. 2. Teach the people complaining about cloaks to actually use their eyes. You can see cloaked enemies if you know what to look for. If you're alert and competent, you're only likely to miss them in situations where you wouldn't see a good Scout anyway. There was never any problem with Scouts, but there is a problem with Medium suits, and that problem is primarily that Assaults are underpowered.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4717	Posted - 2014.03.31 08:46:00 - [2] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Joel II X wrote: Cloaks are fine. Only thing that would make it better is that if getting hurt from weapon damage would make you decloak. If you get hurt from fall damage, you would shimmer violently for like a second and then go back to normal. Other than that, they're fine in my opinion (other than the fact that slight movement results in a full shimmer but whatever). The fact that you think cloaks are "fine" despite the fireing a OHK weapon like a shotgun while still being cloaked is BROKEN. And the fact that YOU think its ok tells me the "type" of player that you are. What do you call a player that defends a broken weapon or mechanic? Yeah. Firing a Shotgun while cloaked requires you to get into Shotgun range without the other person seeing you. When cloaked players are so clearly visible while moving, this means you only used the cloak as a dampener, or "your" victim was actually only a victim of their own lack of attention. If you don't see a cloaked enemy that close to you, that's your own mistake. I don't use a cloak, and I still haven't died to a cloaked enemy who wouldn't have killed me without the cloak. What do you call a player that insists a weapon or mechanic is "broken" when multiple players - many of whom DON'T EVEN USE IT - are pointing out that it's not broken? Yeah.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4717	Posted - 2014.03.31 09:18:00 - [3] - Quote 1pawn dust wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Firing a Shotgun while cloaked requires you to get into Shotgun range without the other person seeing you. When cloaked players are so clearly visible while moving, this means you only used the cloak as a dampener, or "your" victim was actually only a victim of their own lack of attention. Yes because nobody ever got a kill with shotgun before cloaks How did you get THAT from what I said? Getting a kill with a Shotgun - cloaked or not - requires you to get into Shotgun range before getting killed. The range at which a moving cloaker is visible negates the option of relying on the cloak to get this close, unless your opponent is an idiot. Quote: Although cloak to shotgun makes it a lot less easier, the fact somebody can camp a console completely invisible and 1 shot a person who runs down to hack is completely insane. Requires no skill, is completely undefeatable and is just clearly broken. If these cloaked people are "completely invisible", how come I can still see them? If someone is cloaked and not moving, THEY ARE STILL VISIBLE. They're not as clearly visible as they are while moving, but they CAN be seen. Even if a cloaked enemy WAS properly invisible, your crosshairs still light up when you're aiming for them, so you can just do a quick scan around the objective and fire when you see a flash of red. If they don't move, you know where they are, and if they do move, you can see them. When you hit them, you get the blue shield flash making them more visible as well, making any of your teammates nearby more likely to see the enemy as well. It requires no skill to counter, is thoroughly defeatable and claiming otherwise is just clearly ignorant. Learn the facts about cloaks before trying to argue that something they aren't is OP.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4720	Posted - 2014.03.31 10:01:00 - [4] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: I, a true logi player, think this is how it should have been from the beginning, making the logi a support that is able to take some hits and assault the true versatile main combat suit. I have suggested this a few times but it seems no one cares about assaults at all. That's because Assaults have always been fine, and now that they're not, Assault players are crying "OP" at everything that kills them instead of realising that if everything else looks OP, maybe it's not everything else that needs fixing. Nobody seems to care about Assaults because not many people can process that Assaults - which have always been the balance point previously - are now an underpowered option. Quote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: 2. Teach the people complaining about cloaks to actually use their eyes. You can see cloaked enemies if you know what to look for. If you're alert and competent, you're only likely to miss them in situations where you wouldn't see a good Scout anyway. this is not that easy as you make it sound. first on some areas the ambient color and light level makes it very hard to notice. and second you can get off ~3 shotgun shots off during the "decloak". I have yet to see a map where I have any real difficulty seeing a cloaked player. And I also have yet to see a Shotgunner who got off more than a second shot before the decloak animation ended. And I have yet to see a Shotgunner who got into Shotgun range of a competent enemy while cloaked and approaching from within the enemy's field of view. Quote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: There was never any problem with Scouts, but there is a problem with Medium suits, and that problem is primarily that Assaults are underpowered. but there is a problem now. before scouts were not able to touch the domain of the assault because the assault could simply get more ehp. I dont think that scouts were supposed to have that much health. I wasn't meaning pre-1.8 - before the new build, there were problems because Scouts needed a buff. SInce 1.8, there HASN'T been a problem with Scouts. The problems are with medium suits and with people not paying attention.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4722	Posted - 2014.03.31 10:10:00 - [5] - Quote Joel II X wrote: When you switch to a weapon, you decloak and emit a loud noise. I'm not sure how fast the enemy is able to see you in the decloak animation, but the sound is still there. To be fair, while I'm told it's quite a loud noise for the user, it's actually fairly subtle for people witnessing the cloaked players. It's not a loud noise to the person getting shot. That's one thing I think needs a slight (ONLY SLIGHT) tweak. And the decloak animation takes long enough for someone fast to get 2 Shotgun rounds onto a target, but as you said, if you got that close without them seeing you, either you wouldn't have been seen without the cloak, or they weren't paying attention.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4724	Posted - 2014.03.31 11:07:00 - [6] - Quote Edgar Reinhart wrote: I'm a bit of a newberry at the whole Dust experience...... 3mil SP and on the whole still running Militia gear so EVERYTHING seems OP to me! I'm kind of enjoying myself and at the moment want to keep grinding away. I'm therefore not well versed in the ongoing back and forth issues with balance and can therefore only comment on how the game is playing for me at this moment in time. While I don't like telling people who are new that they don't understand the game, in this particular case, I'm leaning towards it being true. Quote: I don't think scouts, cloaks or shotguns are OP or unbalanced at the moment but I do think the scout, shotgun, cloak as a combination is. High Speed, Wide Scanner Radius, OHK ability and zero visibility on most scanners seems to me to be too much of a win, win, win, win combo. I know that they are lower on HP etc but armour modules appear, on the whole, to make that almost a non problem. Armour modules fit in the same slots as dampening. You can't have a STEALTHY cloaked Shotgunner without compromising armour, and you can't have an armoured cloaked Shotgunner without losing stealth. If you brick tank your Scout, other players will scan you - passively and actively. Also, the cloak doesn't make players particularly invisible. The advantages are slight reduction in visibility that only works on opponents who aren't paying attention, and a slight dampening bonus which basically requires you to NOT be brick-tanked if you want to take proper advantage. Quote: I'd like to see the need to specialise fits more become the way around these problems. Rather than nerfing, boosting, anything make it down to choice and play style by pushing people towards certain fits. For example. If someone is running a cloaked, heavily damped scout, then great, but loose them their shotgun. Sidearms and knives only giving you a silent stealth assassin type character. They have speed/ electronic and optical stealth/ good situational awareness but less firepower, although still a OHK with knives. If they want the shotgun then they loose the cloak but can still run full dampeners and precision mods meaning that they are still unscannable by 90% of other players have great situational awareness and speed but need to think more about sneaking around. They have speed, electronic stealth and the ability to OHK but have to pick and choose their sneak attacks more carefully / out manoeuvre their targets. These guys make active scanners more important again. If you want to run a shotgun wielding armour tanked scout then fine for that too but you loose the cloak and dampening meaning that you are visible and more scannable but can take and dish out a lot of damage. That's not "pushing people towards certain fits", it's locking out customisation options. It's also not "making it down to choice and playstyle", it's a hard, HARD nerf on Scouts. Sniper Scouts who use a cloak to move from one sniper pech to the next are MEANT to be a viable Scout fitting. Cloaked Shotgun Scouts are MEANT to be a viable Scout fitting. Cloaked Rifle-wielding Scouts are MEANT to be viable as well. Proposing a reduction in flexibility for Scout suits and claiming that you're promoting "choice" is a pretty bad idea. Quote: Maybe high SP well built Proto players can run the shotgun cloak combo? And this makes it look like you're paying absolutely no attention to how the game mechanics work, because lots of SP shouldn't be giving people significantly different options to lower SP players. Slight tweaks and small advantages are all SP gets you. Quote: This would then also make other classes more relevant again. Need to attack a defended objective? Tweak the assault suit slightly so that it can, for example, run a Mass Driver and a Shotgun/SMG combo (maybe too much I admit....) but then they are ideal for area denial and clearing up stragglers without overlapping a scout or being able to engage at long range. Commando's could then sit in the middle of the two with the ability to operate a bit more stealthily behind enemy lines, dropping uplinks etc but with less firepower than an assault but more stealth and less stealth than a scout but more, and more varied firepower. The only other suit which really has any lack of relevance is the Assault suit, and the best solution there is to make it what it always should have been - an adaptable and customisable suit with a lot of module slots. Logis are meant to have all the equipment, but AREN'T meant to be as adaptable as Assaults, yet they get all the module slots AS WELL AS their equipment slots. Add an extra slot (maybe 2) on Assaults, take one from Logis, but give the Logis a small HP buff to balance out their loss of customisability.