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Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 33	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:25:00 - [1] - Quote I've heard all of the elites talk about how they have isk and run protos in pubs because they can and it's their right. I've heard new folk talk about how protosquads in pubs ruins new player experience and discourage new users. I've heard people call protosuits a crutch. All I know is...vertical progression in an FPS was a terrible idea. Especially with a small matchmaking pool. It makes newplayers feel mostly useless when they have to fight those squads. It makes normal players doubt whether or not they lost due to the opponent being more skilled, after all it could have just been because he had x amount more HP than you. Because of this doubt instead of accepting the loss they come to the forum and complain about proto disparity. It's gives the vets something to use that actually does discourage new players. No one wants to wait 1 and half years to be fairly competitive one on one in a video game. At least that's my opinion.
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4554	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:34:00 - [2] - Quote That's why everyone with any common sense thinks tiericide is best for Dust. I am your scan error.
Canari Elphus Dirt Nap Squad. 1302	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:44:00 - [3] - Quote The problem isnt that vets like to thrash on new players, its that vets have nowhere else to go. There are many factors at play that have to be considered - There has to be a reason for new players to start the game and continue playing - There has to be a reason for veterans to continue playing the game - The game has to encourage competition and escalation of hostilities As I have stated in my CPM thread, a long term game such as Dust cannot succeed by only focusing on new players or old. New players need something to aspire to and veterans need a reason to keep playing. Canari Elphus for CPM1
Canari Elphus Dirt Nap Squad. 1302	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:50:00 - [4] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: That's why everyone with any common sense thinks tiericide is best for Dust. The only issue is that tiericide means that there needs to be more variation or rather specialization of suits to keep diversity in the game. EVE went through tiericide but there are still ships that are better at others in certain aspects through the sacrifice of certain 'jack of all trades' abilities. Canari Elphus for CPM1
Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:54:00 - [5] - Quote I understand that tiers do give newplayers a longer term goal to strive for(carrot and stick WOW type progression). It also tends to keep vets playing once they get there (see sunk cost fallacy, I'm sure it's on wikipedia) which is a good thing for player retention in the long term. The problem is that mixing vertical progression into a genre generally held to be purely skill based kind of sits strangely with new player expectations from other fps games. It doesn't seem to often sit well. I don't think it would be as large of an issue if we had a large and diverse enough population to do effective matchmaking or some type of game mode that could shield new players from the worst aspects of this vertical progression (high sec, pve or what have you). Until then though, I feel that the power disparity or even perceived power disparity between new players and old will tend to scare off new players.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 526	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:56:00 - [6] - Quote Tiericide is the way forward. Along side PVE to help soften the NPE and more rewarding PC and interaction with EVE to give vets a lot more to do and a more meaningful (something which most other console FPS' don't have any of). We want cake and tea.
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 258	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:02:00 - [7] - Quote I dont think massive tiercide is the answer. I like that my dropsuit can be radically different than the next guys. Fitting your suit in an effective way takes just as much skill as shooting someone. What we need is gear based matchmaking. Basic Adv Proto Payouts and SP gains are increased as you go up the tiers. Keeps vets happy, and gives new players something to aspire to. Basically, once you make a suit, the average meta level of the suit is calculated based on all its modules. You can then only use that suit in its respective tier of game.
Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:07:00 - [8] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: I dont think massive tiercide is the answer. I like that my dropsuit can be radically different than the next guys. Fitting your suit in an effective way takes just as much skill as shooting someone. What we need is gear based matchmaking. Basic Adv Proto Payouts and SP gains are increased as you go up the tiers. Keeps vets happy, and gives new players something to aspire to. Basically, once you make a suit, the average meta level of the suit is calculated based on all its modules. You can then only use that suit in its respective tier of game. I've always liked this idea, but the counter argument has always been that we don't have a large enough population to divide up the player base in matchmaking like this. It would cause the timer for matches to be too long. Now, I'm not sure that is true because I have never been privy to that data, but what are some ways that could be addressed if it were an issue? I'm not asking you in particular, just the dust forum goers as a whole, though if you have a response I'd like to hear it.
Canari Elphus Dirt Nap Squad. 1302	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:08:00 - [9] - Quote Far Fall wrote: I understand that tiers do give newplayers a longer term goal to strive for(carrot and stick WOW type progression). It also tends to keep vets playing once they get there (see sunk cost fallacy, I'm sure it's on wikipedia) which is a good thing for player retention in the long term. The problem is that mixing vertical progression into a genre generally held to be purely skill based kind of sits strangely with new player expectations from other fps games. It doesn't seem to often sit well. I don't think it would be as large of an issue if we had a large and diverse enough population to do effective matchmaking or some type of game mode that could shield new players from the worst aspects of this vertical progression (high sec, pve or what have you). Until then though, I feel that the power disparity or even perceived power disparity between new players and old will tend to scare off new players. I think that it should be something along the lines of a new level of combat that is more rewarding (payouts/challenges/etc) for veteran players that will get them to voluntarily move on and leave the new players to get acquainted with the game. Think of it as higher level dungeons for fantasy type mmo games. Canari Elphus for CPM1
Jack Kittinger Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 205	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:30:00 - [10] - Quote Far Fall wrote: At least that's my opinion. You're right this game needs something else so big bad wolves can stalk on bigger prey and let the newcomers just do their thing. I agree that such progression in a FPS makes it wonky, to say the least, CCP is not the most efficient at answering player feedback but it seems to have a steady pace towards development. Simple things like PVE have been missing for too long now and we all can feel the backlash, and the community's attitude reflects that with all the QQ DUST could do with some PVE element that rewards squadding up and generally sticking to a role but PVE that is not TOO exploitable would be nice to see Soon TM just aswell as a meaningful link to EVE. +1 to you for the sunk cost fallacy, it is abhorring to think of this happening in the military where actual men are lost... Proud winner of the 'Templar BPO Raffle' by Castor Crave!! Lucky Number 29

Athena Sentinel SOE Knights Templar 187	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:33:00 - [11] - Quote Far Fall wrote: (I'm not complaining about vets or new people. I'm commenting on a fundamental aspect of the game I think is flawed.) I've heard all of the elites talk about how they have isk and run protos in pubs because they can and it's their right. I've heard new folk talk about how protosquads in pubs ruins new player experience and discourage new users. I've heard people call protosuits a crutch. All I know is...vertical progression in an FPS was a terrible idea. Especially with a small matchmaking pool. It makes newplayers feel mostly useless when they have to fight those squads. It makes normal players doubt whether or not they lost due to the opponent being more skilled, after all it could have just been because he had x amount more HP than you. Because of this doubt instead of accepting the loss they come to the forum and complain about proto disparity. It gives the vets something to use that actually does discourage new players. No one wants to wait 1 and half years to be fairly competitive one on one in a video game. At least that's my opinion. Found this problem with every FPS - You always start as cannon fodder. At least Dust seems to have very unique styles, not 100 variations of the same thing - fake options with everyone really doing the same thing.
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 970	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:42:00 - [12] - Quote Far Fall wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: I dont think massive tiercide is the answer. I like that my dropsuit can be radically different than the next guys. Fitting your suit in an effective way takes just as much skill as shooting someone. What we need is gear based matchmaking. Basic Adv Proto Payouts and SP gains are increased as you go up the tiers. Keeps vets happy, and gives new players something to aspire to. Basically, once you make a suit, the average meta level of the suit is calculated based on all its modules. You can then only use that suit in its respective tier of game. I've always liked this idea, but the counter argument has always been that we don't have a large enough population to divide up the player base in matchmaking like this. It would cause the timer for matches to be too long. Now, I'm not sure that is true because I have never been privy to that data, but what are some ways that could be addressed if it were an issue? I'm not asking you in particular, just the dust forum goers as a whole, though if you have a response I'd like to hear it. I've never been convinced that sorting matches by tiers would be worth it. Most players aren't going to jump in the proto matches and the difference between standard and advanced is usually fairly small. And then you're going to have all kinds of empty matches or matches where you play the same people over and over again and I dunno...I'm 99% certain it would eventually find a way to completely suck. I'm still not completely sold on tiericide but I do believe it to be the best alternative. And what we have now seems to be getting steadily worse. And also: Far Fall wrote: Now, I'm not sure that is true because I have never been privy to that data, but what are some ways that could be addressed if it were an issue? This will give you basic player count info. Running a blaster tank in ambush is like bringing Anthrax to a pillow fight.
Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 35	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:47:00 - [13] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: I think that it should be something along the lines of a new level of combat that is more rewarding (payouts/challenges/etc) for veteran players that will get them to voluntarily move on and leave the new players to get acquainted with the game. Think of it as higher level dungeons for fantasy type mmo games. You can either keep it the way it currently is with the same issues or hope that player counts will get better enough to support multiple tiers in the game. The is no 'have your cake and eat it to' scenario with this. I think that this is a good idea, but I believe PC was sort of an attempt at this(correct me if I'm wrong). It does not seemed to have worked. Brainstorm time! What sorts of game modes could be targeted at vets so that they would tend to aggregate away from areas new players frequent? Any game mode that has an impact on the eve universe would encourage those who care for that sort of thing, though many dust players probably don't. @Athena Sentinel It's true that in many fpses you are disadvantaged, but in those games it usually takes around 3 days to a week to become competitive ability/gear wise. In this game it takes months and the disparity is actually larger than in those games. When I play COD or Battlefield, if I'm smart about positioning behind cover I can kill one or two guys in a group of three that are in the open and get away. In Dust if I see a three man protosquad and I'm in standard gear there is no way I can kill one of them without dying to the other two(excluding one being a straggler or the three protosquad members being incredibly bad). Now, that's mostly due to time to kill differences between this game and those, but it still illustrates the point that vertical progression is a much larger factor in this game than the standards(unless of course you weren't talking about the standard FPS games, in which case my point is moot).
azzkikr 619 the third day Galactic Skyfleet Empire 67	Posted - 2014.03.30 03:56:00 - [14] - Quote Another tiercide post With the 3m sp every active player got last week , everyone should have a proto suit unlocked. Unless they were too stupid to get one. Oh well , no one gave me 3 mil back when I was a noob and I got proto stomped , now I stomp basic and proto alike Director and FC of the Third Day
Canari Elphus Dirt Nap Squad. 1304	Posted - 2014.03.30 04:06:00 - [15] - Quote Far Fall wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: I think that it should be something along the lines of a new level of combat that is more rewarding (payouts/challenges/etc) for veteran players that will get them to voluntarily move on and leave the new players to get acquainted with the game. Think of it as higher level dungeons for fantasy type mmo games. You can either keep it the way it currently is with the same issues or hope that player counts will get better enough to support multiple tiers in the game. The is no 'have your cake and eat it to' scenario with this. I think that this is a good idea, but I believe PC was sort of an attempt at this(correct me if I'm wrong). It does not seemed to have worked. Brainstorm time! What sorts of game modes could be targeted at vets so that they would tend to aggregate away from areas new players frequent? Any game mode that has an impact on the eve universe would encourage those who care for that sort of thing, though many dust players probably don't. The issue with PC is that the matches are too few and far between to keep vets out of pubs. What most vets care about is competition and using the newest and greatest to kill the other guy. The new modes dont have to be radically different but allow for more advanced equipment and more expensive vehicles. Possibly larger maps with more mercs on it that will need more transport vehicles and justify the use of things like tanks and MTACS or fighters. It will give lower SP players a reason to want to get into the higher SP tiered games and make it seem boring for vets to go back to regular pubs. These matches will have greater cost of suits/equipment/vehicles but the potential for greater payouts. Also, you could team deploy here. Canari Elphus for CPM1
Gemini Cuspid Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2014.03.30 04:09:00 - [16] - Quote azzkikr 619 wrote: Another tiercide post With the 3m sp every active player got last week , everyone should have a proto suit unlocked. Unless they were too stupid to get one. Oh well , no one gave me 3 mil back when I was a noob and I got proto stomped , now I stomp basic and proto alike That's again where these type of comments fall off the mark. It really comes down to overall skill points and how the AI matchmaking is pretty **** poor. So what if everyone has a proto suit to use? Does that apply to weapons as well? Toss in upgrades and it's still the same point. Dust is primarily a FPS shooter but the attempts to make this an mmo~style one aren't exactly working. So what should we keep the game as then? Should it really remain as exclusive as it's veering towards? Great FPS games work under the basis that that there's a cap and that eventually when you reach that cap skills and game experience are needed. In Dust you can't make that same argument; skill points can easily offset everything. That proto suit will become meaningless if its a meta 1 versus meta 7 weapon; would you rather be holding a viziam scrambler rifle or a militia assault rifle? You can argue that "skill matters" the most but you're still falling into that trap where skill only accounts for so much and skill points account for a good amount of how far you can also excel in this game. Every Gunlogi driver can attest to this fact; having the skills for the right hardeners means your vehicle can stomp more things without falling to swarms, forges or installations. That's the problem with this game; it actively encourages people to not play because you're never going to be matched up with individuals with similar skill sets. And for those who say it's also about learning one thing they teach you in sports in that when you begin to learn you need to take steps. Playing against a vet constantly is like playing against Lebron in basketball or Federer in tennis or Woods in golf; you're going to learn very little because you have no means to establish a style or actually gain insight to what your limits are. That's where Dust has it's biggest pitfalls and is really in danger of becoming an obsolete game. The fact that it's roughly over a year and it has these types of problems make it even more serious.
Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 36	Posted - 2014.03.30 04:17:00 - [17] - Quote azzkikr 619 wrote: Another tiercide post With the 3m sp every active player got last week , everyone should have a proto suit unlocked. Unless they were too stupid to get one. Oh well , no one gave me 3 mil back when I was a noob and I got proto stomped , now I stomp basic and proto alike This post is not about me. I have a protosuit and 3 proto weapons unlocked and my core skills maxed. I usually go positive, but I don't go positive enough to consistently run proto suits. I know that is because I don't squad up enough and I'm not elite in my skill level. This post is about the new player and their experiences of the game and what I generally think of puts them. This post has also become about trying to find a solution to that problem without causing all the vets to leave if possible.
Far Fall DUST University Ivy League 36	Posted - 2014.03.30 04:23:00 - [18] - Quote Gemini Cuspid wrote: I think you illustrate an often unseen but crucial problem with this game's NPE: the curve of your opponent's difficulty skyrockets. You go from versing all new players, to facing those who will almost always beat you. Here is my anecdote from another thread: A person may be able to start learning the piano by first and very slowly learning a complicated piece by beethoven, but most will be far too frustrated by this and quit before they make any real progress. If the difficulty curve were smoother you'd probably have much higher player retention rate. azzkikr 619 wrote: Another tiercide post With the 3m sp every active player got last week , everyone should have a proto suit unlocked. Unless they were too stupid to get one. Oh well , no one gave me 3 mil back when I was a noob and I got proto stomped , now I stomp basic and proto alike This post is not about me. I have a protosuit and 3 proto weapons unlocked and my core skills maxed. I usually go positive, but I don't go positive enough to consistently run proto suits. I know that is because I don't squad up enough and I don't have elite fps skills. This post is about the new player and their experiences of the game and what I generally think of puts them. This post has also become about trying to find a solution to that problem without causing all the vets to leave if possible.


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