|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2296
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having tiers is terrible for this game, it forces new players to get stomped constantly, it creates barriers from what you can do within the game, and it makes it extremely difficult to balance things for yourself CCP.
When it comes to tiers it should be a basic general tier, then a tier that does what the basic variant does just differently not necessarily better.
Firstly you should remove all MLT-ADV items. For suits the proto frame should becomes the basic general frame, unlocked at level 1 of its respective tree. The medium frame, heavy frame, and light frame skill tree (the one you get to level 3 as an SP sink) should have a general bonus that applies to the race.
Amarr -> 5% armor plate efficacy Caldari -> 4% shield extender efficacy Gallente -> 7.5% armor repairer efficacy Minmatar-> Kincat or shield regulator/recharger/energizer bonuses
The role variants should keep their current bonuses but again the proto frame (i.e the only frame) should be unlocked at level 1 with level 1-5 increase how good the frame is and/or unlocking variants of the suit, for example a Assault frame who sacrifices its grenade for a EQ slot. At level 5, in the future, a TECH-II frame should be unlocked.
For modules the same applies, where each skill gives a relative bonus to the item, with possible some variants unlocked as the level progresses.
Again for weapons it is the same deal, the difference is that only the chromosome weapons have their variants released. But ever weapon should have variants, none better than the other just performing the same task differently.
A visualization would be like so.
Dropsuit command LV1 -> Gallente medium LV1 (7.5% armor repair bonus) Gallente medium frame gk.0 unlocked -> Gallente medium lvl 3 (22.5% armor repair bonus)-> Gallente Assault LV1 (insert 1.8 bonus here) Assault gk.0 unlocked
When it comes to balancing instead of having to balance how good the weak MLT-ADV weapons should be against say a prototype suit, you can balance by saying how good is X vs Y, how can Y react to X, how can Z help Y affect X. Instead you add 3 extra dimensions to that field which makes balancing up tiers and down tiers extremely difficult, and pratically impossible without making one extremely UP and one extremely OP.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2298
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Tiers are what make DUST interesting and differentiate it from other FPS games in the market. Risk vs. ISK is what makes DUST more interesting than any other FPS ever made.
The NPE can be solved by making an optional 2nd tier academy mode so players with less than 5mill SP can fight each other and avoid being stomped until they have enough SP to build a decent fit.
So being able to obliterate a person of a lower tier simply because they haven't played as long as you, regardless of skill is interesting?
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2298
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:IWS had a topic on a good way to do tiericide that we all agreed on so...
I couldn't find it and bump it.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2298
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Then we're going to need:
More T2 suits.
More T1 vehicles.
More T2 Vehicles.
T3 of both.
PvE.
More Officer gear.
More Faction gear.
Player market.
We want to make it like EvE yes, then we need what EvE's got.
To have all that we would need a game that grows, and sadly the way this game operates between new players and vets it doesn't allow for growth. Adding a small portion of this allows for growth regardless if we have half of what is stated above, the rest will come naturally.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Tiers are what make DUST interesting and differentiate it from other FPS games in the market. Risk vs. ISK is what makes DUST more interesting than any other FPS ever made.
The NPE can be solved by making an optional 2nd tier academy mode so players with less than 5mill SP can fight each other and avoid being stomped until they have enough SP to build a decent fit. So being able to obliterate a person of a lower tier simply because they haven't played as long as you, regardless of skill is interesting? You overestimate the use of higher tiered equipment compared to lower tiered equipment. I recently made an entirely fresh alt to see what the game was like with lower skills and equipment. As it turns out, I did a heck of a lot better warpoint and k/d-wise than I did when I first started dust. Proto isn't some kind of "auto-win button" as you butthurt losers paint it out to be. I killed protos with a 500k sp character and MLT gear. It was hard, yes and it required me to use every bit of exprience and knowledge of the game mechanics that I, as a player accrued over my many months of playing. But I damn sure didn't get "obliterated"...
Well what did you expect? You played the game before so you know how it works so there is no reason why you would have done worse now than when you started. Proto isn't an auto win button but it can be relatively close. And again you did so well because you know the game, new players won't be able to do as well as you because they lack said experience.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 16:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Glass Zeraki wrote:I agree that the NPE is terrible...I went through it. I understand that tiericide would level the playing field for new players and probably make the game more fun.
That said, tiericide makes me nervous. Can't really explain why, but I've played for months and I can't imagine Dust without tiers. I enjoy the RPG elements and depth of this game...tiericide would make it feel shallow for me.
Most MMOs are moving away from the higher level = better completely model and switching to one where new players can compete with old players.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2302
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 17:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
rithu wrote:So you want to make this game like all other games? tiers,SP,ISK are the only things that sets apart this game from others.
We still have classes, races, sp, isk, ewar, persistance, eve connection and more. Removing one broken aspect to allow the game to grow is not going to make this game like every other game. Tiers makes them game so only vets can play.
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2304
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 18:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
BAD FURRY wrote:with out tiers there would be no Rule of dust " the new bunny gets its face smashed in with a pro rock" and with out that there's no dust 514 !
Kinda sad this is what makes Dust514
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2304
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 18:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Tiers are what make DUST interesting and differentiate it from other FPS games in the market. Risk vs. ISK is what makes DUST more interesting than any other FPS ever made.
The NPE can be solved by making an optional 2nd tier academy mode so players with less than 5mill SP can fight each other and avoid being stomped until they have enough SP to build a decent fit. So being able to obliterate a person of a lower tier simply because they haven't played as long as you, regardless of skill is interesting? Yes..its very interesting. just because you and half the community dont like it does not mean we need to change it. you people do not own this game ok. we can play it however we want. if you dont like it well thats to bad. nobody tells you how to play and there is no way in the world anyone will tell me how to play unless they paid me and even still. Obliterating people who cant fight back is fun for a large number of people. again if you dont like it thats just to bad.
Well at least I know what FPS you like to play
For the Federation!
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2305
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 18:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
iliel wrote:I think your idea is interesting. In fact I had a similar discussion with corp mates yesterday. However, their reactions were similar to those which you've received.
I think what makes this game frustrating but at the same time compelling is the SP system and its related character customization. Your suggestion would effectively eradicate the latter, thereby stressing the FPS elements of the game over and against the RPG elements of it.
While I sympathize with this desire (it is no fun being mowed down by a nearly static HMG user from 60+ meters away - - especially when just starting out), perhaps the easier and simpler fix is for CCP to increase the weekly cap to say 500,000 sp. Moreover, they should release active boosters that provide 3x SP per match. Indeed, the point is to keep old players playing (i.e., those who have spent a lot of time and money getting to where are in character development) and to encourage new players to play (those who have little SP to play with and who don't want to wait several months to get that SP). Heck, I might even say new players could be given one limited Free 4x active SP booster.
Right now, I think the issue with the game is the business model. CCP wants to make money - - I mean, they need to make it; otherwise the game cannot continue. However, if you're new, there's almost no reason to pay money. The game hasn't gotten great reviews. And playing as a new player is a pretty awful experience. The reaction is generally: "interesting concept, but too slow progression."
CCP ought to make this a pay-to-play game. But at this point they wouldn't get any new players and might even lose some old ones (given the relative failure of recent updates). The alternative to pay to play, then, from a business vantage point, is pay to win, which would not so much affect older players as newer ones. Having a pay to win model means newer players can witness what olders have and can then decide to pay to get to that point quicker. As it is now, I don't know anyone who, after playing for a day or two, would pay five bucks to get an extra 500k SP. I mean, that's about twenty bucks a month for 2mil SP - - and it takes at least 10 mil to be remotely effective, so therefore that is 20 bucks for five months or 100 dollars. There's no way anyone is going to pay that much and play for that long getting stomped. With the boosters being added an extra multiplier and the weekly cap being doubled, this would effectively cut the play time and cost in half, making it about the same as the price of a standard game (50 bucks) and also playable like one.
The reactions are expected because people like things to be easy. For example when tanks got needed so many threads popped up saying they used to be balanced even though they weren't. It's just the nature of people.
For the Federation!
|
|
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
2316
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 22:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Tiers are what make DUST interesting and differentiate it from other FPS games in the market. Risk vs. ISK is what makes DUST more interesting than any other FPS ever made.
The NPE can be solved by making an optional 2nd tier academy mode so players with less than 5mill SP can fight each other and avoid being stomped until they have enough SP to build a decent fit. The point is that the skill should unlock an asset that everyone gets, no tiers that make someone insurmountably better. The bonuses increase per skill level to enhance the suit, and tiers remain for all modules, equipment, and weapons such that decisions must still be made about what capabilities you want versus what your suit is able to fit. Hell, in EVE the skills to increase PG and CPU are x1 skills because training the skill for a ship gives you that ship and no matter what else, everyone has that same ship. In this game they have to be x5 because if you train them to level 5 and use PRO gear you become indestructible to anyone who doesn't have the same SP, and that sucks. Removing suit tiers would also allow a different bonus system. As an example: 2 bonuses for the Basic Frame skill on those suits. 2 bonuses for the Basic Frame skill and 2 bonuses for the Specialization skill on Specialist suits, plus a static role bonus to help define them. It would still only take level 3 in the Basic Frame skill to get a Specialist suit, but now someone who went the extra mile with the Frame skill would gain a bit of an edge. Fly an Omen against a Zealot in 1v1 and tell me all ships are the same. Proto suits are like T2 ships in a lot of ways. You're exaggerating how hard it is to kill a proto suit with STD. And hunting expensive suits with cheap ones is among the most fun kills you can get.
The zealot when it comes to fitting is only slightly better than an omen although the omen has a tiny bit more tank. This is not basic - proto this like comparing a proto suit to a proto logistics. It's the exact same suit just one does something differently or sacrifices something for something else. The basic suit sacrifices what and gains what? Nothing this is way different from how it is in eve. The zealot sacrifices HP for 1 more low and better bonuses but it is dependant on its related skills and it's modules. But a bad zealot can be easily destroyed by a good or even half decent omen. Even a good omen can be killed by a good zealot what makes or breaks these two different ships is again their passive kills and modules. Not one being a higher tier than the other. There is no basic advanced and prototype omen or zealot.
For the Federation!
|
|
|
|