DUST Search - [Balance Issue] assault suits vs scouts

Francois Sanchez wrote:

Mobius Kaethis wrote:

Lets look at this problem by comparing proto suits of the same race. Look at these two fits for the gallente assault and the gallente scout. Both assume that the user has maxed out their skill trees.

Maxed Assault gk.0
Assault gk.0
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Enhanced Shield Extender
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle

base movement speed of 4.07 m/s
total HP: 1188

Maxed Scout gk.0
Scout gk.0
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Complex Armor Plates
Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle
Kaalakiota Magsec SMG
Flux Grenade
Cloak Field
Compact Nanohive

base movement speed of 4.44 m/s
total HP: 989

Now, clearly the assault has almost a 200 hp edge but it is slower than the scout, can't hold a side arm, can't hold a grenade, are easier to spot on radar, and can't turn invisible at will. At this point there is no point in running an assault when a scout will clearly make the more effective and versatile killing suit.

Assaults need to have something that makes them preferable to scouts. Currently CCP is trying to provide that incentive through the assault bonuses but those bonuses are too limited in their scope to have much of an impact on game play. A simple way to buff the assault would be to increase either the base HP or the damage but that would make the suit compete with the heavy frames for max HP which is not the point of the suit and might invalidate another class.

Nerfing the scouts ability to stack plates would be another way to make assaults have more of a place on the battle field, doing so by reducing base hp would lead to more people brick tanking (as shown above) which is not desireable. Reducing the CPU and PG of the scout would also necessitate buffing the scout bonus to using cloaks (or they would become unusable).

Honestly I don't know what changes could be made to deal with the lack of a place for assaults on the battle field. I think that changing the assault bonuses would be a start but the changes would need to be pretty radical to make an actual difference. What do you all think. Come on DUST community, there are plenty of smart people out there. How can we make a place for assaults on the battlefiled that isn't simply one of being meat for the meat grinder.

I think assault are well balanced, however scouts have too many modules, they can become too tough. A scout shouldn't be able to have more than 450 HP

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Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1351	Posted - 2014.03.27 10:19:00 - [1] - Quote Lets look at this problem by comparing proto suits of the same race. Look at these two fits for the gallente assault and the gallente scout. Both assume that the user has maxed out their skill trees. Maxed Assault gk.0 Assault gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Enhanced Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle base movement speed of 4.07 m/s total HP: 1188 Maxed Scout gk.0 Scout gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle Kaalakiota Magsec SMG Flux Grenade Cloak Field Compact Nanohive base movement speed of 4.44 m/s total HP: 989 Now, clearly the assault has almost a 200 hp edge but it is slower than the scout, can't hold a side arm, can't hold a grenade, are easier to spot on radar, and can't turn invisible at will. At this point there is no point in running an assault when a scout will clearly make the more effective and versatile killing suit. Assaults need to have something that makes them preferable to scouts. Currently CCP is trying to provide that incentive through the assault bonuses but those bonuses are too limited in their scope to have much of an impact on game play. A simple way to buff the assault would be to increase either the base HP or the damage but that would make the suit compete with the heavy frames for max HP which is not the point of the suit and might invalidate another class. Nerfing the scouts ability to stack plates would be another way to make assaults have more of a place on the battle field, doing so by reducing base hp would lead to more people brick tanking (as shown above) which is not desireable. Reducing the CPU and PG of the scout would also necessitate buffing the scout bonus to using cloaks (or they would become unusable). Honestly I don't know what changes could be made to deal with the lack of a place for assaults on the battle field. I think that changing the assault bonuses would be a start but the changes would need to be pretty radical to make an actual difference. What do you all think. Come on DUST community, there are plenty of smart people out there. How can we make a place for assaults on the battlefiled that isn't simply one of being meat for the meat grinder. Fun > Realism
Francois Sanchez What The French Academie 5	Posted - 2014.03.27 10:41:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Lets look at this problem by comparing proto suits of the same race. Look at these two fits for the gallente assault and the gallente scout. Both assume that the user has maxed out their skill trees. Maxed Assault gk.0 Assault gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Enhanced Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle base movement speed of 4.07 m/s total HP: 1188 Maxed Scout gk.0 Scout gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle Kaalakiota Magsec SMG Flux Grenade Cloak Field Compact Nanohive base movement speed of 4.44 m/s total HP: 989 Now, clearly the assault has almost a 200 hp edge but it is slower than the scout, can't hold a side arm, can't hold a grenade, are easier to spot on radar, and can't turn invisible at will. At this point there is no point in running an assault when a scout will clearly make the more effective and versatile killing suit. Assaults need to have something that makes them preferable to scouts. Currently CCP is trying to provide that incentive through the assault bonuses but those bonuses are too limited in their scope to have much of an impact on game play. A simple way to buff the assault would be to increase either the base HP or the damage but that would make the suit compete with the heavy frames for max HP which is not the point of the suit and might invalidate another class. Nerfing the scouts ability to stack plates would be another way to make assaults have more of a place on the battle field, doing so by reducing base hp would lead to more people brick tanking (as shown above) which is not desireable. Reducing the CPU and PG of the scout would also necessitate buffing the scout bonus to using cloaks (or they would become unusable). Honestly I don't know what changes could be made to deal with the lack of a place for assaults on the battle field. I think that changing the assault bonuses would be a start but the changes would need to be pretty radical to make an actual difference. What do you all think. Come on DUST community, there are plenty of smart people out there. How can we make a place for assaults on the battlefiled that isn't simply one of being meat for the meat grinder. I think assault are well balanced, however scouts have too many modules, they can become too tough. A scout shouldn't be able to have more than 450 HP
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 842	Posted - 2014.03.27 11:49:00 - [3] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Lets look at this problem by comparing proto suits of the same race. Look at these two fits for the gallente assault and the gallente scout. Both assume that the user has maxed out their skill trees. Maxed Assault gk.0 Assault gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Enhanced Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle base movement speed of 4.07 m/s total HP: 1188 Maxed Scout gk.0 Scout gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle Kaalakiota Magsec SMG Flux Grenade Cloak Field Compact Nanohive base movement speed of 4.44 m/s total HP: 989 Now, clearly the assault has almost a 200 hp edge but it is slower than the scout, can't hold a side arm, can't hold a grenade, are easier to spot on radar, and can't turn invisible at will. At this point there is no point in running an assault when a scout will clearly make the more effective and versatile killing suit. Assaults need to have something that makes them preferable to scouts. Currently CCP is trying to provide that incentive through the assault bonuses but those bonuses are too limited in their scope to have much of an impact on game play. A simple way to buff the assault would be to increase either the base HP or the damage but that would make the suit compete with the heavy frames for max HP which is not the point of the suit and might invalidate another class. Nerfing the scouts ability to stack plates would be another way to make assaults have more of a place on the battle field, doing so by reducing base hp would lead to more people brick tanking (as shown above) which is not desireable. Reducing the CPU and PG of the scout would also necessitate buffing the scout bonus to using cloaks (or they would become unusable). Honestly I don't know what changes could be made to deal with the lack of a place for assaults on the battle field. I think that changing the assault bonuses would be a start but the changes would need to be pretty radical to make an actual difference. What do you all think. Come on DUST community, there are plenty of smart people out there. How can we make a place for assaults on the battlefiled that isn't simply one of being meat for the meat grinder. I think assault are well balanced, however scouts have too many modules, they can become too tough. A scout shouldn't be able to have more than 450 HP Ah by that logic meds should not be allowed to HP tank beyond 800 and heavies should be restricted to heavy weapons oh of course no biotic modules for heavies they are supposed to be slow.... Brick tanked scout have never be a problem so far (and yes i twas possible before 1.8) they are loosing their main advantages speed, mobility and to a certain degree stealth. If you don't like the sandbox approach where scouts can get high hp, meds/heavies be fast as scout or as stealth, you would need to change way more. But if you prevent such fitting you will kill whats left from Dust originality...
J'Hiera Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 60	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:51:00 - [4] - Quote Give Assaults a third bonus, aside from their Role. Role Bonus Bonus 1 Bonus 2 Bonus 3 What that would be, I don't know. Could be tank related that doesn't affect direct HP buffer. Ie. increased armor rep, reduction to speed penalty (or doesn't get affected by speed penalty), extra grenades, bonuses that apply to grenades (splash radius, damage). Built in nanites that replenish ammo over time. I'm initially thinking something that adds to their "I'm not particularily special" role but puts them in a position where its desirable to play one.
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 65	Posted - 2014.03.27 14:31:00 - [5] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: Give Assaults a third bonus, aside from their Role. Role Bonus Bonus 1 Bonus 2 Bonus 3 What that would be, I don't know. Could be tank related that doesn't affect direct HP buffer. Ie. increased armor rep, reduction to speed penalty (or doesn't get affected by speed penalty), extra grenades, bonuses that apply to grenades (splash radius, damage). Built in nanites that replenish ammo over time. I'm initially thinking something that adds to their "I'm not particularily special" role but puts them in a position where its desirable to play one. +1 Why they have not done this from the beginning is beyond me making this game a little more like EVE online would help allot they would only have to; 1) Move the bonuses to the suits. This would make it easier for the Dust 514 team to define what each suit is and does. 2) Have the bonuses reflect their EVE online counterparts. For example the Amarr and Gallente sentinels would get 2 armor resistance bonuses, the Caldari sentinel is fine as it already reflects the Caldari and so does the Minmatar. Here is my Idea for the Amarr commando with 3 bonuses Amarr heavy suit: 5% reduction to light weapons reload speed per level. Amarr Commando suit: 2% bonus to light laser weapon damage per level. Amarr Commando suit: 5% reduction to laser weapon heat buildup per level. This would allow CCP to make a second medium and heavy suit for each faction with just 1 bonus so that the players can make a more informed decision on witch suit they will go after the basic. I don't even know why I bother.
MUNSON MANCHILD Random Gunz Galactic Skyfleet Empire 7	Posted - 2014.03.27 15:15:00 - [6] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Lets look at this problem by comparing proto suits of the same race. Look at these two fits for the gallente assault and the gallente scout. Both assume that the user has maxed out their skill trees. Maxed Assault gk.0 Assault gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Enhanced Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle base movement speed of 4.07 m/s total HP: 1188 Maxed Scout gk.0 Scout gk.0 Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Complex Armor Plates Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle Kaalakiota Magsec SMG Flux Grenade Cloak Field Compact Nanohive base movement speed of 4.44 m/s total HP: 989 Now, clearly the assault has almost a 200 hp edge but it is slower than the scout, can't hold a side arm, can't hold a grenade, are easier to spot on radar, and can't turn invisible at will. At this point there is no point in running an assault when a scout will clearly make the more effective and versatile killing suit. Assaults need to have something that makes them preferable to scouts. Currently CCP is trying to provide that incentive through the assault bonuses but those bonuses are too limited in their scope to have much of an impact on game play. A simple way to buff the assault would be to increase either the base HP or the damage but that would make the suit compete with the heavy frames for max HP which is not the point of the suit and might invalidate another class. Nerfing the scouts ability to stack plates would be another way to make assaults have more of a place on the battle field, doing so by reducing base hp would lead to more people brick tanking (as shown above) which is not desireable. Reducing the CPU and PG of the scout would also necessitate buffing the scout bonus to using cloaks (or they would become unusable). Honestly I don't know what changes could be made to deal with the lack of a place for assaults on the battle field. I think that changing the assault bonuses would be a start but the changes would need to be pretty radical to make an actual difference. What do you all think. Come on DUST community, there are plenty of smart people out there. How can we make a place for assaults on the battlefiled that isn't simply one of being meat for the meat grinder. I'm starting to wonder what the point of the medium frame is.
neolutumus The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 9	Posted - 2014.03.27 15:45:00 - [7] - Quote Assaults should be beefier (Amarr and Gallente) or drop some major DPS (Caldari and Minmatar). I agree that the medium suits are becoming almost nigh obsolete, and I imagine that some VERY serious changes will occur with the CF and scouts once they see the numbers coming back. All the medium suits need, imo, is a bit more EHP to make them worthwhile. Although I'm really in favor of a more realistic calculation of how much plates slow a suit down (ie. heavy suits already weigh a ton, so adding plates wouldn't slow them that much, whereas scouts weigh very little, and have little push power, thus resulting in HUGE drops in speed should they choose to stack plates. Equation would look like P/(W+M)=R where P:suit power rating , w : Weight of suit , M : weight of module.) If this were to be used, there could be additional low modules that would increase base movement rate by reducing the overall armor HP on a percentage basis. Give DUST514 some direction.
ShalaShasta 666 Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 29	Posted - 2014.03.27 16:27:00 - [8] - Quote why cant an assault hold a grenade or side arm? are we talking commandos or assaults? OUKH Join Today Lokun Listamenn Got Alt?
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1351	Posted - 2014.03.27 19:11:00 - [9] - Quote ShalaShasta 666 wrote: why cant an assault hold a grenade or side arm? are we talking commandos or assaults? In the scenario I proposed above the assault lacks the CPU and PG for either a grenade or a side arm. The scout, can easily fit both. Notice how the scout actually has a proto side arm fit? This indicates a much larger imbalance than many would claim exists. Fun > Realism
Cosgar ParagonX 9146	Posted - 2014.03.27 20:19:00 - [10] - Quote MUNSON MANCHILD wrote: I'm starting to wonder what the point of the medium frame is. General purpose suit with no specialty but at the same time, no drawbacks. Dropsuit metagame should look something like this: scout > heavy > assault > logi > scout. It was way back when, but all the bonus shifting/buffs kind of messed things up. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

sasha reaper Nyain Chan 4	Posted - 2014.03.27 20:24:00 - [11] - Quote here is the problem .... Heavy suits - Heavy weaponry > light weaponry > sidearm medium suits - Light weaponry > sidearm light suits - Light weaponry > sidearm ... see the missing link yet? medium weaponry.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1408	Posted - 2014.03.27 20:50:00 - [12] - Quote sasha reaper wrote: here is the problem .... Heavy suits - Heavy weaponry > light weaponry > sidearm medium suits - Light weaponry > sidearm light suits - Light weaponry > sidearm ... see the missing link yet? medium weaponry. Or limit light suits to sidearms only No, I'm not being serious "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Balamob SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 19	Posted - 2014.03.27 21:59:00 - [13] - Quote I think we need to stablish first, the point of reference in order to buff or nerf, as far as i knew assaults were that point of reference cus they were the most balanced class. Problem is that every class has been set apart from the point of reference. In other words, scouts shouldnt get a nerf, assaults should get a buff, this could be more CPU/PG, regain ammunition or reduction on dropsuit ISK cost (those are my ideas so far).
RA Drahcir Inner.Hell 320	Posted - 2014.03.27 22:16:00 - [14] - Quote bump
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 27	Posted - 2014.03.27 23:31:00 - [15] - Quote I would preferably limit the slots on the Scout class, and secondly, increase the cloack PG/CPU, as in EVE, to force the player to choose between maximum stealth or brick tanking. PS. I would not limit the scout on unable to use plates and such, just limit their PG/CPU Amarr Victor
neolutumus The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 12	Posted - 2014.03.28 14:43:00 - [16] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Or limit light suits to sidearms only No, I'm not being serious In this scenario, and in most, I think all logi's should be able to carry a sidearm, and scouts should not have any.....makes sense to me..... Give DUST514 some direction.
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 11	Posted - 2014.03.28 15:46:00 - [17] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Ah by that logic meds should not be allowed to HP tank beyond 800 and heavies should be restricted to heavy weapons oh of course no biotic modules for heavies they are supposed to be slow.... Brick tanked scout have never be a problem so far (and yes i twas possible before 1.8) they are loosing their main advantages speed, mobility and to a certain degree stealth. If you don't like the sandbox approach where scouts can get high hp, meds/heavies be fast as scout or as stealth, you would need to change way more. But if you prevent such fitting you will kill whats left from Dust originality... Of course heavy should be restricted to a heavy weapon. That's what's killing the assault class and the whole game. Heavy suits = heavy weapon ONLY Medium suit = medium weapon (let's call the actual one this way) ONLY Light suit = shotgun ONLY If you want to play with a AR or RR with heavy suit, choose the commando! But not the sentinel. I already posted what I'm thinking about the actual sout that are absolutely imbalanced (no a scout shouldnt have the possibility to tank. It's a scout!) and I totally agree with the author. What you call "Dust originality" is the way players take advantages of all the broken stuffs in the game. When you choose a suit, you're supposed to choose it for its role, but most of the dust community dont, and CCP doesn't care at all..
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization 546	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:12:00 - [18] - Quote neolutumus wrote: Assaults should be beefier (Amarr and Gallente) or drop some major DPS (Caldari and Minmatar). I agree that the medium suits are becoming almost nigh obsolete, and I imagine that some VERY serious changes will occur with the CF and scouts once they see the numbers coming back. All the medium suits need, imo, is a bit more EHP to make them worthwhile. Although I'm really in favor of a more realistic calculation of how much plates slow a suit down (ie. heavy suits already weigh a ton, so adding plates wouldn't slow them that much, whereas scouts weigh very little, and have little push power, thus resulting in HUGE drops in speed should they choose to stack plates. Equation would look like P/(W+M)=R where P:suit power rating , w : Weight of suit , M : weight of module.) If this were to be used, there could be additional low modules that would increase base movement rate by reducing the overall armor HP on a percentage basis. This has always been my thinking. +1 Gÿó +¦ +¦ Gÿó Trained Skills
Ras Orloc Bloody Palm Militia 15	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:18:00 - [19] - Quote sasha reaper wrote: here is the problem .... Heavy suits - Heavy weaponry > light weaponry > sidearm medium suits - Light weaponry > sidearm light suits - Light weaponry > sidearm ... see the missing link yet? medium weaponry. How about just pistols as sidearms, SMGs and ARs as medium weaponry, and all other current light weapons as medium weaponry?
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1359	Posted - 2014.03.29 18:06:00 - [20] - Quote Bump for more visibility. Fun > Realism



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