I don't think HAV are OP.... but they aren't tiered well.

This HAV pandemic is an example of what tiericide can do if done wrong.

What I would say is that MLT HAV are too efficient for what they are.

Its not about nerfing anything. That doesn't achieve balance in the slightest. Its about tweaking what we have to develop the relationship between vehicles and AV.

Personally the only way I see to develop this is to start with static AV models.

Lets take the ones we are given and introduce the required racial parity amongst heavy/AV weapons.

Once done we as a community over a period of time test the weapons and determine where faults with the weapon lie, and present a statement to CCP/CPM.

After which we actively try to balance vehicles around the AV values.

If you are looking for quick fixes I can list a few off for you.

1.) 5% increase to the damage of AV weapons (all ranges, charge/rof, etc stay the same)

2.) Decrease effectiveness of shield hardeners to 50%, and Armour Hardeners to 35%.

3.) Increase by 5-10% the fitting requirements of Hardener units.

4.) Implement a system like the Cloak Cooldown whereby Hardeners cannot be consecutively activated. Once a hardener activates it runs its duration and starts a hardener cool down cycle equivalent to half of that activated modules cool down timers before another hardener can be activated.

The following should not be implemented at once but equally considered as a possible solution to quickly and temporarily fix the situation.

This de-incentivising stacking hardeners but doesn't prevent it, reinforces the nature of waves of opportunity and allows AV to capitalise on such weaknesses which not directly buff or nerf AV and tanks respectively.

I dont agree with the angle you are coming from. but I do agree that the tank spam is a problem that ccp needs to look at.

This might be a shocker, but I really don't think tanks are OP, I just don't think they are tiered or balanced well. We only have two tiers of vehicle (mlt, and std) but we have four tiers of AV (mlt, std, adv, pro). It's very hard to balance 4 tiers around 2 tiers. It also doesn't help that there are four tiers of modules for tanks, so a standard tank or a militia tank can fit all the way to proto but still be just a standard tank.

Vehicles are annoying sure, but people simply don't AV. When my corp squads up, it's generally me with a Kaalakiota forge and my Corp Leader with his Ishukone. We also have a resident rail tanker whose been trying infantry lately. Anywho, if any combination of the three of us pull out rails or forges, the vehicle game is done. We win. Even doubled hardened Maddies have trouble with this kind of firepower. However, we will be the only people running AV the entire game. AV generally doesn't start in my games until I start slinging slugs at people. People normally don't pull out the AV fits until six Somas hit the field, and sorry kiddies but that's too late.

I can understand why people are hesitant to AV however, simply put, without vehicles you are useless. Swarms are only lock on, PLC is a joke (still get kills with it on occasion), and unless you practice, popping redberries with a forge is difficult (my favorite pastime). I guess you could get vehicles with the MD, but until 1.8 drops I don't think it's even viable. AV means almost entirely removing your AI capability for the off chance a tank rolls your way WITHOUT hardeners. (Seriously though, **** hardeners)

1.8 may not seem to address vehicles but I do think it is a step in the right(ish) direction. All racial commando suits are coming out, Gallente and Minmatar damage buffs work for the light AV, and they all have an equipment slot for hives. WP for damaging vehicles will help too. Now people actually have some intensive to shoot at that tank, points are points. Much better than offloading 15k damage into something, watch it speed away, double hardened, and get nothing but a railgun to the face.

1.8 is not without downsides however, the nerf to damage mods and proficiencies is going to hurt (The forge still works wonders at advanced without mods though, so I'm not too concerned). These nerfs hit the swarm launcher very hard, but if the damage bug is ever fixed, it will still get a performance jump to what we see today.

Personally, I think we need less time between patches and lighter patches, even if they are as simple are just bringing proficiency back to what it was. Two weeks should be enough time to see how these changes all play out, and then change accordingly.

If hardeners are tweaked then make them so that if you stack them that you would only receive ten percent more of a cushion , same with damage mods . CCP did the community a great favor changing damage mods ( talking about infantry and using that as an example ) and reducing the percentage but now they need to make it the same to reduce stacking damage mods . Ten percent to infantry and the same from vehicles so if someone wanted to stack they would only receive a slight boost for the excessive amount of CPU / PG for the mods .

This would reduce stacking and would kill the double damage mods ( or triple for vehicles and infantry ) and double hardeners .

Everything else is fine basically . Shields are so weak that they need the regen for all vehicles so I wouldn't touch that at all .

There must be a way to kill the incentive to stack and it shouldn't be by killing their effectiveness or changing PG / CPU it should be by increasing the penalty .

all the "real tanker" are in pre-1.7

I nuked a Neutron Maddy about twenty minutes ago.

Used my DAU on my 'Templar' Heavy; prof 3, one damage mod.

Three shotted him. LAVs are your friend, would-be AVers.

Before that I killed him with four shots and a packed AV nade; three of them went into hardeners and the AV nade finished the job. STD nade.

I don't think it's tanks that are necessarily OP, just that multiple hardeners are, and swarms are defs UP.

they're OP as ****. as long as more than 20 people are any threat with them, they will be OP. i miss when you were either god mode tanker or you were a scrub who got booted out of the club the second you knocked on the door with your ***** ass sica.