DUST Search - 1.8 nerfing AV again with grenade nerf?

Baal Roo wrote:

Gelhad Thremyr wrote:

If CCP severely hampers the dual hardener bitches two AV nades might be sufficient enough if 3 ppl throw them it will be approx 900 proto nades x 6, most of the tanks flee with that kind of damage without hardeners. There is definitly a problem with Tank harderners and effectiveness of forges and swarms. If the last two receives 20% buffs we might get to an even playing field.

The problem with these simple calls for buffing AV to balance AV vs Tanks is that it will again throw off the balance for Dropships, which is for the first time in quite awhile in a pretty good and fair spot.

Slowing tank's top speed down so that us AV users actually have enough time to put the damage onto them needed to drop them would be a much better solution, and would also require tankers to actually think and play more tactically. The real issue with tanks is that they are just too fast, so once their hardeners run down, they can usually just run off into the redline and out of the range of AV weapons before anyone could put lethal damage onto them.

I also think Armor/Shield Hardeners should be limited to one per vehicle so that they can't be stacked and toggled.

A 20% reduction on speed and a 1 hardener cap would completely balance tanks IMO.


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Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 100	Posted - 2014.03.21 20:31:00 - [1] - Quote Is it me or is this fundamentally an additional AV nerf in only allowing 2 AV grenades to include the Hive ressuply nerf as well? I don't get it. I just don'. I've finally have a semi consistent strategy against tanks and Drop Ships to include my need for all three AV grenades but that offers no value all of the sudden b/c I'm losing a grenade. In addition, does anyone else think that CPU/PG requirements should be reduced if grenade counts are being reduced? I haven't been on the forums at all and only got back in recently after a bout a month and half off do to being sick. I'm sorta excited to try 1.8 although I'm enjoying Ground Zeros and trying to plat (super easy) FFXIII: LR. Can someone shed some light? Am I going crazy or is this an issue?
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 104	Posted - 2014.03.21 20:40:00 - [2] - Quote I also have to add that nerfing Dmg Mods will negatively impact my AV as well given I found a way to run with swarms and need all three complex mods for the success I currently have. I really hope they come up with something otherwise I'll have to just stay away from AV completely. And getting rid of double hardners or active hardner length is not going to help enough IMO.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 106	Posted - 2014.03.21 23:20:00 - [3] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Marc Rime wrote: Doesn't matter. It's only a theoretical nerf ;). "Grenade count reduced by 1" What's so theoretical about it? It's a capacity/clip size nerf. Only if CCP, reduces cpu/pg accordingly (by 1/3rd), it's technically not a nerf. I meant that infantry is unable to kill vehicles as is, this change is nerfing an ability that doesn't exist in the first place. I use proto swarms with 3 complex dmg mods and have success against tanks and LAV's and Drop Ships. Although double hardeners ef things up, I just attempt to wait it out. I then use 3 non compact AV grenades along with swarms. I even ef up drop ships with grenades when they get stoopid close to take out uplinks and stuff. That is always fun as hell to be honest. I have no problem, as things currently stand, in taking out vehicles solo a reasonable amount of times. I also loose badly and know when to move on. Obviously, taking away a 3rd grenade and making the resupply total and rate slower when I drop hives is going to seriously hurt my abilities. In addition, changing damage mods so much will also be an issue. That's like a triple nerf to AV as an infantry unit. Triple complex damage mods is about 23% increase in damage. Now that will be closer to 11%. Screws up swarms way too much. Without higher damage mods even breach FG and Officer FG is screwed. I'm just not happy about the lack of balance announcement to vehicles. I think, if nothing is done, CCP is making an absolute huge mistake. The only thing I can think of is they aren't saying anything to, literally, avoid negative feedback on the issue. Or they just aren't doing anything and missed that train. I'm telling you right now. I'm not trying any of this new ish if they don't balance AV and vehicles. I'm just going to spec into vehicles and ride that bandwagon.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 107	Posted - 2014.03.22 00:11:00 - [4] - Quote MRBH1997 wrote: Nade nerf is more so meant to deal with pussies that hide up high or on another side of a wall spamming core locus nades or nades in general. It's highly unlikely to be meant as an AV nerf, though it will screw over some corps in PC that focus fighting with nade spam. So I use "Nade Spam" per se when the moment allows for it but I can't tell you how many times some heavy runs over two of my core grenades with 90% armor left and **** me. They really aren't "all that". I also have wide success with proto grenades so I think they are balanced well already. Anyway that is a discussion for another thread. I just wanted to say that i'm not a pussie LOL. I play many different ways to be a success to the team. So get off my Nades! :D
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 107	Posted - 2014.03.22 02:00:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: ...and increase SL range... Sorry, but the swarm launcher range is perfect as it is. I would know as I am an AV swarm user myself skilled into advanced tier. The locking range is no problem as you only need to be smart about how you approach the situation. Their damage is also alright for their tier. The principle issue with the swarm launchers is their application of the damage they have. Here is a video posted on YouTube by the famous Judge Rhadamanthus himself. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXE As you can see, swarms have no problem locking onto him at the current range. Again, it's the application of said damage that is flawed. Something is wrong with the math that needs to be changed. Anyways, when it comes to AV weaponry in general, I'm guessing it should be ok to exempt the AV grenades since it take a lot of effort to kill those tanks especially when those tanks are practically god mode with their invulnerability fields active. This is single handedly the greatest youtube video and assessment of the imbalance of the vehicles and AV. I'm really glad you through this up.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 110	Posted - 2014.03.22 20:28:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: AV Grenades make a dedicated AV fitting in the same way Locus Grenades on a dual Swarm Commando are a practical and reliable anti-infantry weapon. They aren't, and if they are, they shouldn't be. AV Grenade nerf is NOT the same as AV nerf. Actual primary weapon AV needs a buff. AV Grenades do not. This is perfectly reasonable to ensure that the primary AV role is handled by dedicated AV fittings, and not by infantry slayers with FOTM Rifle/FOTM Sidearm and AV grenades. Not just grenades, but the Complex Dmg mods being cut in half also jack things up. Three equals about 23 percent dmg boost to FG or Swarms but NOW three Complex Dmg Mods will only be about 11 percent. I don't think you read the whole thread. EDIT: In addition, Hives are getting a nerf so sitting on hives and tossing grenades and launching swarms is severely hampered. This is a triple angled nerf to AV....period. Saying anything otherwise is completely ignorant.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness 115	Posted - 2014.03.23 03:47:00 - [7] - Quote I'm really not looking forward to 1.8 now. AV is getting nerfed...period. Doesn't matter whether the nerf is soley for AV or not. AV is still getting nerfed. Heavies, if their HP is not lowered, will be practically invincible b/c they are fixing TTK supposedly. Now I deal less damage to 2k HP heavies...yay! Drop ships are going to be more succesful simply b/c breach forges with stacked damage mods are useles...again back to AV. But hey, we have cloaks right? :P I mean, you also have the issue with drop uplinks. Domination is FAST if the null doesn't change hands often. The whole key to Dom is uplink placement. Now, It is going to take an average of 1.5 times longer to spawn in? So basically whoever gets the null first with a reasonable size party and is proto is going to keep it.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness 120	Posted - 2014.03.23 20:16:00 - [8] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Gelhad Thremyr wrote: If CCP severely hampers the dual hardener bitches two AV nades might be sufficient enough if 3 ppl throw them it will be approx 900 proto nades x 6, most of the tanks flee with that kind of damage without hardeners. There is definitly a problem with Tank harderners and effectiveness of forges and swarms. If the last two receives 20% buffs we might get to an even playing field. The problem with these simple calls for buffing AV to balance AV vs Tanks is that it will again throw off the balance for Dropships, which is for the first time in quite awhile in a pretty good and fair spot. Slowing tank's top speed down so that us AV users actually have enough time to put the damage onto them needed to drop them would be a much better solution, and would also require tankers to actually think and play more tactically. The real issue with tanks is that they are just too fast, so once their hardeners run down, they can usually just run off into the redline and out of the range of AV weapons before anyone could put lethal damage onto them. I also think Armor/Shield Hardeners should be limited to one per vehicle so that they can't be stacked and toggled. A 20% reduction on speed and a 1 hardener cap would completely balance tanks IMO. I believe the following is what needs to be done in total in order to properly balance AV vs Vehicles. Again, I believe everything here needs to be done or something very similar. 1) Decrease vehicle turret damage by 10% as a whole. 2) Max resistance to damage should not exceed 70% but I would prefer 60%. So Double hardners aren't as effective as they have been. If 3 people are launching a 12k effective damage on a drop ship and all of them hit then there should be at least 3.6k damage at a minimum. Another option is to have a minimum damage taken. For example, a tank can never take less than 90 damage from each swarm missle or something to that effect applied to FG's as well in proportion to the damage per projectile. 3) There should be a speed cap on every vehicle except LAV's 4) If AV grenades are seriously going down to 2 for clip size then I believe they should get a 20% damage buff. 5) Increase swarm speed to about 1.3x. it just needs a little boost tbh. 6) Increase damage for Swarm launchers by 10% OR Increase total missles by 1 or 2. 7) Increase effective HP for Dropships by 10%. 8) Damage mods for vehicles need the same nerf that Infantry Damage Mods are getting 9) A maximum Damage per shot/projectile for all vehicles. Stacking damage mods on blasters and rail turrets is getting ridiculous. Optional stuff: 1) Normal weapons should have a bit more effect against vehicles. I believe that they should bring back normal weapons causing shields to not recharge. At least create a penalty of .01% increase in delay for every bullet. If 3 people are firing HMG's at a tank then it should never get it's shields back IMO. 2) Remove Proximity RE alerts to tankers. I would not change PG/CPU requirements. As an additional note, I run Proto AV grenades. If I throw three at an LAV that is unmanned, I usually take it out after the shields are gone. So I don't quite understand how some people have so much difficulty with them.