DUST Search - Scanning - Seeing and Being Seen

boba's fetta wrote:

Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:

Murt Lesp wrote:

Does this apply to the Caldari Scout vs Gallente Scout debate?

If so, I'd say staying hidden is more important. Finding targets is easy by comparison

It does. Good catch. While only a few have responded so far, it seems like the majority think staying hidden is more important, and it sounds like they run scouts. One person even said while he's playing his heavy, he couldn't care less about being hidden.

Hopefully I get more response to this. If the community feels that staying hidden is the more important of the two, then the burden should fall to the player to stay hidden.

As it stands, all things being equal (same skills, same number of damps/enhancers), a Gallente Scout will always be hidden from a Caldari Scout. Currently, the burden falls to the Caldari Scout needs to put effort into fitting that one extra mod to see the Gallente Scout. If being hidden is more important for the general case, this should be reversed.

To reflect its importance, the burden should fall to the Gallente Scout to stay hidden from the Caldari Scout by having that one skill level higher or, both have maxed skills, to fit that one extra mod.

On the opposite end, if it's more important for heavy suits to see targets rather than not be seen by targets, the burden should fall to them to train Precision Enhancement higher than their target's Profile Dampening, or to fit more Precisions Enhancers than his target has Profile Damps.

and what use would you say would fitting said modules be for a heavy. as a heavy id love to know. because as far as i see im a member of a squad my role is not to find the enemy. its to distract the enemy one they have been found or to cling onto a control point for dear life. to be that nutter who carryies on spawning into the cru camp. to keep them busy while my squad mates reek havoc. the first man into that objective taking all the crap. or even better the one that hits the flank while the assualts keep them pinned down.

so please do tell me why id ever fit such mods that do nothing to help me play my class?

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Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 675	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:26:00 - [1] - Quote Fairly simple question for you guys. Is it more important during the course of a match to see a target or not be seen by your target? If you have to focus on one or the other, which do you find more important? Having a low profile and not being seen? or Having a low precision (totally counter-intuitive, but that's a good thing) and seeing others? For whichever you think is most important, are there any conditions that would cause you to change your mind? Is one always better than the other? It's completely to your play style, there is no wrong or right answer. I just want opinions other than my own. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Sir Dukey KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 411	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:36:00 - [2] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Fairly simple question for you guys. Is it more important during the course of a match to see a target or not be seen by your target? If you have to focus on one or the other, which do you find more important? Having a low profile and not being seen? or Having a low precision (totally counter-intuitive, but that's a good thing) and seeing others? For whichever you think is most important, are there any conditions that would cause you to change your mind? Is one always better than the other? It's completely to your play style, there is no wrong or right answer. I just want opinions other than my own. both.
Deltahawk Durango Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 154	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:41:00 - [3] - Quote i'm a heavy... i want my opponents to know i'm coming I don't believe in an eye for an eye... I believe in two eyes for an eye!
Vulcanus Lightbringer Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:42:00 - [4] - Quote Not being seen for me, because not dying is more important than killing.
One Eyed King Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 680	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:43:00 - [5] - Quote Running a minja, I can survive not being seen much better than not seeing. I can substitute range and precision inadequacies with field awareness, but when I am seen, I am dead. Looking for the scout hangout?
Mac Dac Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 493	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:23:00 - [6] - Quote Young ones! just like the branches of the jungle trees, the hunt intertwines in many ways. For as the hunter knows the element of surprise. The prey knows the element of a trap. Because in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king! Get it? "We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1904	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:40:00 - [7] - Quote both 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 793	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:50:00 - [8] - Quote Not being seen is more important. Visibility of my enemies is nice, but I know where they're going to end up in any case. Knowledge is power
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 128	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:06:00 - [9] - Quote I prefer to be a radar chameleon to a radar hawk. My other dropsuit is a Python.
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1631	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:26:00 - [10] - Quote Hugely dependent upon on on your role, loadout and the task at hand.

Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 683	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:30:00 - [11] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Hugely dependent upon on on your role, loadout and the task at hand. List some then. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
One Eyed King Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 689	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:42:00 - [12] - Quote Mac Dac wrote: Young ones! just like the branches of the jungle trees, the hunt intertwines in many ways. For as the hunter knows the element of surprise, the prey knows the element of a trap. Because in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king! Get it? OH MY F'ING GOD!!! Someone finally gets it!!! And doesn't think its double entendre!!!! +20 likes for you my friend!! (1 real, 19 imaginary but heartfealt) Looking for the scout hangout?
Murt Lesp Hydra's Wraiths 45	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:45:00 - [13] - Quote Does this apply to the Caldari Scout vs Gallente Scout debate? If so, I'd say staying hidden is more important. Finding targets is easy by comparison
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1779	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:46:00 - [14] - Quote Dampning. I get a smile on my face when I can walk behind a proto and knife them. Also, can people not hear my footsteps or something? I tend to make plenty of noise and charging Knives isn't exactly quiet.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 3588	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:49:00 - [15] - Quote A mixture of both is necessary on the battlefield. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:52:00 - [16] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Fairly simple question for you guys. Is it more important during the course of a match to see a target or not be seen by your target? If you have to focus on one or the other, which do you find more important? Having a low profile and not being seen? or Having a low precision (totally counter-intuitive, but that's a good thing) and seeing others? For whichever you think is most important, are there any conditions that would cause you to change your mind? Is one always better than the other? It's completely to your play style, there is no wrong or right answer. I just want opinions other than my own. EDIT: To clarify my position. As your suit is lighter, it's more important to stay hidden. As your suit is heavier, it's more important to see targets. The edit is wrong FYI Its is far more important to see them then they see you. So you miss one or two Scouts, it's not gonna matter. See the enemy, avoid tanks.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 683	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:58:00 - [17] - Quote Murt Lesp wrote: Does this apply to the Caldari Scout vs Gallente Scout debate? If so, I'd say staying hidden is more important. Finding targets is easy by comparison It does. Good catch. While only a few have responded so far, it seems like the majority think staying hidden is more important, and it sounds like they run scouts. One person even said while he's playing his heavy, he couldn't care less about being hidden. Hopefully I get more response to this. If the community feels that staying hidden is the more important of the two, than [i]the burden should fall to the player to stay hidden[/b]. As it stands, all things being equal (same skills, same number of damps/enhancers), a Gallente Scout will always be hidden from a Caldari Scout. Currently, the burden falls to the Caldari Scout needs to put effort into fitting that one extra mod to see the Gallente Scout. If being hidden is more important for the general case, this should be reversed. To reflect its importance, the burden should fall to the Gallente Scout to stay hidden from the Caldari Scout by having that one skill level higher or, both have maxed skills, to fit that one extra mod. On the opposite end, if it's more important for heavy suits to see targets rather than not be seen by targets, the burden should fall to them to train Precision Enhancement higher than their target's Profile Dampening, or to fit more Precisions Enhancers than his target has Profile Damps. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 683	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:59:00 - [18] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: The edit is wrong FYI Its is far more important to see them then they see you. So you miss one or two Scouts, it's not gonna matter. See the enemy, avoid tanks. My opinion is not wrong. This is a completely subjective game balance issue. Good try. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 3338	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:19:00 - [19] - Quote So, this is really a Caldari versus Gallente scout question. I see the Caldari as a real recon scout with a less of a combat role than the other scouts. They should focus on seeing everything for their squad in a passive manner to avoid alerting the enemy that they have been targeted. The Gallente is the exact opposite. Their role is to slip in and take out targets of opportunity, preferably starting with any Caldari scouts. Both have strong roles to play. Both should attempt to maximize all aspects of sensor warfare while retaining a fair ability at engaging targets. Saying you have to choose one or the other without setting the context is pointless. Adapt or Die // Republic Lance Commander // @ReesNoturana
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 385	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:22:00 - [20] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Murt Lesp wrote: Does this apply to the Caldari Scout vs Gallente Scout debate? If so, I'd say staying hidden is more important. Finding targets is easy by comparison It does. Good catch. While only a few have responded so far, it seems like the majority think staying hidden is more important, and it sounds like they run scouts. One person even said while he's playing his heavy, he couldn't care less about being hidden. Hopefully I get more response to this. If the community feels that staying hidden is the more important of the two, then the burden should fall to the player to stay hidden. As it stands, all things being equal (same skills, same number of damps/enhancers), a Gallente Scout will always be hidden from a Caldari Scout. Currently, the burden falls to the Caldari Scout needs to put effort into fitting that one extra mod to see the Gallente Scout. If being hidden is more important for the general case, this should be reversed. To reflect its importance, the burden should fall to the Gallente Scout to stay hidden from the Caldari Scout by having that one skill level higher or, both have maxed skills, to fit that one extra mod. On the opposite end, if it's more important for heavy suits to see targets rather than not be seen by targets, the burden should fall to them to train Precision Enhancement higher than their target's Profile Dampening, or to fit more Precisions Enhancers than his target has Profile Damps. and what use would you say would fitting said modules be for a heavy. as a heavy id love to know. because as far as i see im a member of a squad my role is not to find the enemy. its to distract the enemy one they have been found or to cling onto a control point for dear life. to be that nutter who carryies on spawning into the cru camp. to keep them busy while my squad mates reek havoc. the first man into that objective taking all the crap. or even better the one that hits the flank while the assualts keep them pinned down. so please do tell me why id ever fit such mods that do nothing to help me play my class? i want proxie chat so i can run around in the gall heavy saying GET IN MAH BELLY. nah just kidding trade window please=)

Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2211	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:30:00 - [21] - Quote boba's fetta wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Murt Lesp wrote: Does this apply to the Caldari Scout vs Gallente Scout debate? If so, I'd say staying hidden is more important. Finding targets is easy by comparison It does. Good catch. While only a few have responded so far, it seems like the majority think staying hidden is more important, and it sounds like they run scouts. One person even said while he's playing his heavy, he couldn't care less about being hidden. Hopefully I get more response to this. If the community feels that staying hidden is the more important of the two, then the burden should fall to the player to stay hidden. As it stands, all things being equal (same skills, same number of damps/enhancers), a Gallente Scout will always be hidden from a Caldari Scout. Currently, the burden falls to the Caldari Scout needs to put effort into fitting that one extra mod to see the Gallente Scout. If being hidden is more important for the general case, this should be reversed. To reflect its importance, the burden should fall to the Gallente Scout to stay hidden from the Caldari Scout by having that one skill level higher or, both have maxed skills, to fit that one extra mod. On the opposite end, if it's more important for heavy suits to see targets rather than not be seen by targets, the burden should fall to them to train Precision Enhancement higher than their target's Profile Dampening, or to fit more Precisions Enhancers than his target has Profile Damps. and what use would you say would fitting said modules be for a heavy. as a heavy id love to know. because as far as i see im a member of a squad my role is not to find the enemy. its to distract the enemy one they have been found or to cling onto a control point for dear life. to be that nutter who carryies on spawning into the cru camp. to keep them busy while my squad mates reek havoc. the first man into that objective taking all the crap. or even better the one that hits the flank while the assualts keep them pinned down. so please do tell me why id ever fit such mods that do nothing to help me play my class? He said skills, not modules. ak.0 4 LYFE Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 685	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:31:00 - [22] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: So, this is really a Caldari versus Gallente scout question. I see the Caldari as a real recon scout with a less of a combat role than the other scouts. They should focus on seeing everything for their squad in a passive manner to avoid alerting the enemy that they have been targeted. The Gallente is the exact opposite. Their role is to slip in and take out targets of opportunity, preferably starting with any Caldari scouts. Both have strong roles to play. Both should attempt to maximize all aspects of sensor warfare while retaining a fair ability at engaging targets. Saying you have to choose one or the other without setting the context is pointless. It's very much a question of what the community values more in general. The Caldari-Gallente Scout scenario is a byproduct of that. I have set the context. The context is that, if you believe hiding is more important than seeing, that importance should be evident in the extra effort required to hide. It is purely subjective. Let me edit your post. "The Caldari is the exact opposite. Their role is to find targets of opportunity for the squad to take out, preferably starting with any Gallente scouts." As I said, all thing being equal, a Gallente Scout with never be seen by a Caldari Scout. If hiding is more important than seeing, this should be reversed and, all things being equal, a Caldari Scout should always see a Gallente Scout. ('All things being equal' means, equivalent skills and equal number of respective mods.) And it just occurred to me (ashamed it didn't sooner,) even if the Caldari Scout took priority and the burden to stay hidden fell to the Gallente Scout, Cloaks would still offset this and there is no counter. In the end, with things done my way, the Caldari Scout would always see a Gallente Scout of equal skill and with equal number of mods. Until the Gallente Scout activated his Cloak. The change is as simple as tweaking scan profile and scan precision values to maintain the status quo except to in the case of the Caldari Scout seeing the Gallente Scout. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:35:00 - [23] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: The edit is wrong FYI Its is far more important to see them then they see you. So you miss one or two Scouts, it's not gonna matter. See the enemy, avoid tanks. My opinion is not wrong. This is a completely subjective game balance issue. Good try. Okay, so there's really only two suits who can run a stealth build. Gal scout and Amarr scout. There 2-4 layout is perfect. So you have a few gal scouts running around, not the biggest deal in the world. Seeing 95% of the rest of their team via scanning helps you win. I know, it's not perfect, but there's only two suits who can play the stealth game effectively and Amarr is really set up to be a crazy light infranty therefore its more important to scan and be aware then it is to hide in most cases. Can a scout cloak toss RE and kill you and go 17/2 sure. Is it gonna happen every match, hell no. Players will learn that scanning will outweigh stealth and that the Cal Scout and Gal Logi will be the most desirable squad-mates. I run solo and i dont scan, I've been in teams who had run a serious scanner and its a massive advantage to see 95% of the foes vs the 1-2 guys you can't see. Check your binds, it might be more difficult with cloaks but being visually aware is more important than the piece of **** UD we have.. But who can argue with the benefits of scanning teammates, nothing but love for them. I expect more elite squads to use the Cal then Gal scout, while more advanced players to favor Gal scouts. the ability of a scanning x2 squad to run over a match is greater than if it were to run stealth based team.
Mac Dac Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 498	Posted - 2014.03.20 05:18:00 - [24] - Quote Mac Dac wrote: Young ones! just like the branches of the jungle trees, the hunt intertwines in many ways. For as the hunter knows the element of surprise, the prey knows the element of a trap. Because in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king! Get it? I feel as though i need to clarify what i said in this post. I was joking but i also said I preferred "sight" ,if you will. I am keen to seing more then hiding. To me it is not about knowing where my enemies are but the knowledge i have over them. When i have a couple of range amps and precision mods i feel like i have a 6th sense. When i am in my dampened fit i feel mischievous like i am the one to start me enemies impending doom. These examples illustrate how "seeing" and "hiding" manage knowledge. With the stealth I can deny my enemies knowledge over me which gives me freedom to do whatever i please. Hence why I felt mischievous. However with intel gathering i obtain knowledge over my enemies. I know so much about my surroundings that i can predict my enemy's movements and even suit types as if i had a 6th sense. I can see a redberry moving at a comparablely slow rate and predict its a heavy, just like how i can see a redberry moving comparablely fast and know its a scout. In Dust knowledge goes beyond just seeing people on the radar. You start to look at everything, especially the minor almost background changes to the battlefield like an remote explosive appearing on the ground or a blueberry suddenly disappearing from my awarness zone. Hence why "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king." "We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste


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