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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
328
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Posted - 2014.03.18 03:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed.
If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory.
But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use.
That argument doesn't hold up anymore because around half of the heavies i see now are all running light weapons. There is no "engage these suits outside of their range" any longer.
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
328
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Posted - 2014.03.18 03:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Mad Syringe wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases.
Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially.
Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window.
Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering.
This is my great concern for 1.8 as well. You get multiple people in sentinel suits camping a primary objective (the pivotal point in skirmish or the sole objective in Dom) and no one is going to be getting in there in any reasonable time because of all the stupid high resistance buffs. Grenade damage is automatically nerfed, if they use all Amarr and Gallente heavies, all RR and CR damage is automatically nerfed, and so are indirect mass driver rounds. You get 4 or 5 of these guys, all in the same suit with most using CRs and RRs, it's going to make for a really ugly time.
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
328
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Posted - 2014.03.18 03:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
I guess it's time to bring in the math I did again from an earlier posting since people still think there's going to be absolutely nothing wrong with these new sentinel suits. For everyone who has already seen this, sorry for the repeat, but it seems some people still don't get it.
"Here's my issue with these new heavies. First of all, like some other guys said in here already, HMG is taking no nerfs at all. That may eventually cause a problem a long the lines with being able to get into and take over objectives in skirmishes. Get a couple heavies camping a letter (particularly in a dom) and you aren't going to be getting in there any time soon most likely without some sort of vehicle or a ton of people. HMGs already cut down people pretty good the way it is. You can have a TTK increase all you want, it still will equal out in the end back to what we have now, but this isn't the main problem. The main problem with HMGs currently is that slowdown or "sloth" effect when hit by continuous streams of bullets, completely stopping any player's ability to get behind cover once they get fired upon by an HMG.
Second, we're all taking a grenade nerf, both actively through a reduction in the number we can carry and also subtly through heavy explosive resistances. I like to use core nades at times. They especially are helpful when you have heavies that spawn in around an objective you're hacking and try to get the jump on you. Bring down their shields with a CR or ScR while jumping around while cooking a core nade, toss that sucker and a lot of times you can then finish them off. No longer possible with the explosive resistances. I'll just use the base damage for a rough estimate, take 25% off of 600 and you're already down to 450. You get a sentinel that is using brick tank with around 1200 armor, you aren't even going to get through half his HP. Then you combine that with rifle nerfs, proficiency nerfs, and damage mod nerfs, and things are gonna get ugly.
I can say the same with REs. Take 25% off of 1500 and you're down to 1,125. Fully tanked Amarr sentinels will easily resist RE blasts without an issue, and if their shields full to begin with, more than one RE. Then if we look at the Gallente sentinel with a comparable armor HP level, we find that he will be able to resist at least one RE. If the RE was placed merely to guard an objective against hacking, that Gallente sentinel can absorb the RE blast (if he has full shields possibly more than one RE even), hack the objective and then automatically start repping from his passive armor repair. Yes these bonuses may be small, but if no one can get back to that objective immediately, he can simply camp it, while his passive armor repair (even though it is only 1 hp/sec and very small) would let him hold that area combined with his shield reserves until a logi or someone with a rep tool or hive arrived. Even if he had to "hold out" briefly, within around 5 minutes his entire base suit armor level would be almost fully repaired.
Lastly we have the resistance bonuses. I'll use Gallente and Amarr as those have the rail/projectile resistance. For any engagements at any range, most people are going to be still using RR or CR as an armor counter weapon (although we'll see somewhat of a return of MD I'm sure). If people using these Amarr/Gallente sentinels hold true to the heavy idea and use HMGs, then this whole ordeal will not even be an issue, however as this last event has shown, we now have plenty of scrubs that use sentinel fatsuits with RR. Taking this resistance bonus into account, that's 10 to 15% for projectile and rail weapons. This means that any medium suit, even a tanked logi suit with RR with the max out of around 1000 eHP still will fail miserably in a standard engagement with a sentinel suit. It's plain mathematics. If they notice each other at around the same time (fighting even at the longest optimal range available), or even if the logi suit gets a slight jump on the Amarr sentinel from a flank, he is still going to loose. 1000 eHP is not going to outdo around 2000 eHP. It's as simple as that. That is just from what we have now already pre 1.8 Now you factor in that extra 10 or 15% resistance and that Amarr or Gallente sentinel will trump that logi or other medium suit every single time. Like the OP said above, that 15% makes for an extra 210 more HP. Does not seem like much, but when we are dealing with these high of numbers, that is a ton. That sentinel will be afforded at least an extra few seconds (with the new reduced TTK) due to that bonus while the other medium suits have none.
If these new heavies were only to use HMGs, forges, or sidearms, then I could easily buy into the argument that they aren't overpowered as the argument of "well fight them from outside of their optimal and you'll have no trouble" would be true. However, I know full well, with these new bonuses, light weapon heavies, particularly the RR heavies will become even more prevalent than they are now and it will be much worse than currently.
TL;DR
1.Heavy resistances to explosives will cause huge problems when using REs and grenades to counter their armor
2. Simple numerics combined with new bonuses means in an equal situation and even a slight disadvantage, light weapon heavies will prevail every single time against scout and medium suits.
3. If heavies only functioned optimally at CQC - lower mid ranges (like they are designed to) none of these issues would even present a problem.
4. I feel that one bonus or the other should have been used for heavies. Either they gain a resistance to certain weapon types based upon race, OR resistance to explosives. Getting both at once I feel leads to a huge discrepancy for other suit users, heavies will reign supreme, particularly light weapon sentinels."
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
335
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Posted - 2014.03.19 02:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:TBH...
CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8
Current 1.7:
Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it.
1.8 Expectulation
I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol.
I take huge issue with these new resistance bonuses. First of all, they shouldn't be anywhere near as high as they are. Secondly I feel it should've been an either/or situation. Either heavies got the explosive resistance, OR the light weapon resistance based on race, not both. I think it's going to lead to a huge imbalance.
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 02:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it.
Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that.
When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand.
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 02:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Scalesdini wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it.
Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that.
When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand. Actually, I made a long, well thought out, articulate post on this page of this thread. As for me using RR? lol is all I have to say, I've used nothing but HMG since August 2012.
Well, if you use an HMG then I really don't have an issue with you. To me, the only thing I really want resolved with HMG is that massive slowdown effect.
It's all these guys using long range weapons combined with the massive HP reserves and resistances that are going to cause the discrepancy.
It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
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