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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
126
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Posted - 2014.03.17 07:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Unnecessary? They've been needed for quite some time now. It's good it's happening.
The only real headscratcher one is for the SMG. (lol, like really?)
I think you've misunderstood what the OP was referring to. He meant the 'Blaster Rifle' variants like the TAC, Burst, and Breach. Not the racial ones like Rail, Combat, and Scrambler Rifles.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
126
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Posted - 2014.03.17 08:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Tweaksz wrote:What i'm getting at is that, yes RoF does count as a DPS increase, though if we factor in range( which in TANK 514 plays a major role) said AR variant would still be inferior in certain aspects to the original racial rifle.
Though the Plasma Rifle's various variants are just, well, copies of the other races' own rifles, they shouldn't be expected to outperform Gallente's design. They are, after all, imitations. They are, yes, underwhelming, but that is more or less an acceptable outcome of what they are. I do remember the days where the TAC underwent what is going on with the Scrambler Rifles right now. Tactical was the Scrambler Rifle, Breach was the Rail Rifle, Burst was the Combat Rifle. That's all they are. Imitations. In a sense, we've had all the racial rifles for a while- they were just poorly made by Gallenteans.
So by your logic the other racial "Assault" variants should be just as 'underwhelming' compared to the AR as the AR variants are to them?
How many times will I post this before this "they are cheap copies" argument dies.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
126
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Posted - 2014.03.17 08:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tweaksz wrote:Nosid Katona wrote:Kasote Denzara wrote:Tweaksz wrote:What i'm getting at is that, yes RoF does count as a DPS increase, though if we factor in range( which in TANK 514 plays a major role) said AR variant would still be inferior in certain aspects to the original racial rifle.
Though the Plasma Rifle's various variants are just, well, copies of the other races' own rifles, they shouldn't be expected to outperform Gallente's design. They are, after all, imitations. They are, yes, underwhelming, but that is more or less an acceptable outcome of what they are. I do remember the days where the TAC underwent what is going on with the Scrambler Rifles right now. Tactical was the Scrambler Rifle, Breach was the Rail Rifle, Burst was the Combat Rifle. That's all they are. Imitations. In a sense, we've had all the racial rifles for a while- they were just poorly made by Gallenteans. So by your logic the other racial "Assault" variants should be just as 'underwhelming' compared to the AR as the AR variants are to them? How many times will I post this before this "they are cheap copies" argument dies. I never once said the other assault variants should be just as underwhelming, atm all assault variants on other rifles seem to be just fine. IMHO of course. Edit: I never once mentioned cheap copies the other assault variants while still being competent and effective, to a certain extent they don't outperform the AR at cqc.
I was more referring to Kasote however on the subject of the 'Assault' variants I feel it is necessary to mention they are not fine.
Take the Assault Comat Rifle for example. The ACB out ranges, has better DPS, and a better damage profile then the AR. While some MIT argue the AR has more potential damage per clip if one can't get close enough to apply said damage OR dies before even half of it leaves the gin it remains a moot point.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
127
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Posted - 2014.03.17 08:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote:So by your logic the other racial "Assault" variants should be just as 'underwhelming' compared to the AR as the AR variants are to them?
How many times will I post this before this "they are cheap copies" argument dies.
They are underwhelming. At least for the ones we have now. The Assault variant of the Scrambler Rifle is, well, laughable compared to their "normal" Scrambler Rifle, just as the Combat Rifle's "normal" variant is more efficient at the intended range. In a close up, "I can hug you" fight? The ACR will have the stronger edge over the CR, but why is the CR user even getting that close? The same applies to the Scrambler Rifle and Rail Rifle. If you didn't know, the Assault variants are the attempts to imitate Gallente's Plasma Rifle. Gallente is currently the only one that has one imitation variant of the other three races' rifles. Amarr lack burst and breach, Caldari lack tactical and burst, Minmatar lacks breach and tactical (in the current names of the Plasma Rifle variants).
Underwhelming compared to the normal form perhaps, compared to the AR which they are imitating? Not at all.
Just because the Scrambler, Rail, and Combat rifles all outperform their Assault variant doesn't change the fact that the assault variants are very close to if not better then the AR performance wise. While on the other side the AR variants not only are out performed by the AR but they are out performed by a HUGE margin by the rifles they are imitating.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
128
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Posted - 2014.03.17 09:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote:Underwhelming compared to the normal form perhaps, compared to the AR which they are imitating? Not at all.
Just because the Scrambler, Rail, and Combat rifles all outperform their Assault variant doesn't change the fact that the assault variants are very close to if not better then the AR performance wise. While on the other side the AR variants not only are out performed by the AR but they are out performed by a HUGE margin by the rifles they are imitating. From highest damage reduction coming in 1.8: RR, SCR, CR, AR, SMG (which is still weird). Each and every variant of these listed weapons are having their damage reduced. For now, you can say anything you want about the CR's, RR's, and (possibly?) ScR Assault variant outpreforming the Plasma Rifle- I promise you that it's going to change in 1.8. All we are really doing right now, you and I, are pissing back and forth about things that are going to be changed, though I'm extremely sure the CR, SCR, and RR are going to lose a bit of popularity when they no longer do nearly twice the damage of the Plasma Rifle, if not more than that. I'm extremely positive, that against a shield tanker, the Plasma Rifle will devastate better (faster) than the Assault Combat Rifle can against an equally healthed armor tanker in 1.8. The problem right now with CR and RR is that they are armor killers with far too much damage being dealt to even be slowed down by shields. In 1.7, CR and RR are superior to every other rifle. In 1.8? We'll see. Am I saying the Plasma Rifle variants will find use in 1.8? No, I'm not. I really can't. People will use pretty much whatever they want to use.
Yoyr ignoring the fact that someone has already proven with math and the stats we have been shown that the ACR will still out DPS the AR. They are nerfing them all yes but they aren't addressing the problems. The gap that has formed between the AR and other rifles will grown incrementally smaller yes however the gap will still be there and noticable.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
128
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Posted - 2014.03.17 09:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote: Your ignoring the fact that someone has already proven with math and the stats we have been shown that the ACR will still out DPS the AR. They are nerfing them all yes but they aren't addressing the problems. The gap that has formed between the AR and other rifles will grown incrementally smaller yes however the gap will still be there and noticable.
Ps. Not to mention with the new Prof. The gap has the potential to grow larger. As armor gives x2 the health RR and CR Prof.V will eat through it once shields are down, while AR and ScR Prof.V will demolish shields but meet heavy resistance against armor. I don't know I haven't seen it in action so I'll reserve judgement on that point.
The moment that the "they'll have higher DPS because of theory and no actual testing!" slipped out, I shook my head. It holds no argumentative value. The DPS arguments are just "what ifs". That's it. "What if". The greatest problem with DPS arguments is simply... they don't formulate human error. You can expect a brick to break a window when thrown, but it'll just do nothing if it never meets the window.
I'm not really sure what your argument is here... They aren't changing how the weapons function or handle in anyway, only the damage they do and the skills and modules that affect that damage. Will the changing of the rifle stats make people miss or hit more? Am I missing something?
So again the ACR will still out DPS the AR I don't need to test that to know it. Also how are DPS values 'what ifs'? It is a static number that doesn't change in any situation. The application of that DPS depends on the user, opponent, and situation but the DPS is still there.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
128
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Posted - 2014.03.17 09:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote:I'm not really sure what your argument is here... They aren't changing how the weapons function or handle in anyway, only the damage they do and the skills and modules that affect that damage. Will the changing of the rifle stats make people miss or hit more? Am I missing something?
So again the ACR will still out DPS the AR I don't need to test that to know it. Also how are DPS values 'what ifs'? It is a static number that doesn't change in any situation. The application of that DPS depends on the user, opponent, and situation but the DPS is still there. DPS is based around the ideal that every bullet will hit and every bullet will do the exact same amount of damage constantly. In Dust 514, that's incorrect. We have armor, shields, headshot bonus, headshot bonus while shielded, headshot bonus for only armor, distance of attacking, the skills of the attacker, the skills of the defender, modules of attacker, modules of defender, and various other variables. It can be static, but only after every possible situation and outcome are calculated. While people can "what if" these, application is still questionable. That's why DPS isn't a viable choice to use to argue.
Actually it is. While I agree there are far more variables to consider in DUST then your average FPS it doesn't mean DPS can't be used for balance. The modules affect both attacker and defender equally, so they should be balanced against eachother and the situation and build of attacker VS defender is a moot point as you can't balance around such situational statistics.
Balance between tshould like weapons that function nearly identically should be achieved by using a baseline such as DPS, effective range, and damage profil in a static situation.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
129
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Posted - 2014.03.17 10:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote: Actually it is. While I agree there are far more variables to consider in DUST then your average FPS it doesn't mean DPS can't be used for balance. The modules affect both attacker and defender equally, so they should be balanced against eachother and the situation and build of attacker VS defender is a moot point as you can't balance around such situational statistics.
Balance between tshould like weapons that function nearly identically should be achieved by using a baseline such as DPS, effective range, and damage profil in a static situation.
Balance shouldn't be judged from equal grounds. It should be assumed that the attacker has the best while the defender has the worst. This is, after all, New Eden. I actually believe they attempted balance around the "equal ground" belief, which is both understandable and questionable. Questionable because, well, there's so many variables to assume. For example: Prototype gear, as much as people apparently hate to talk about it, is balanced. Around killing and defending other prototype. Advanced has less of a fighting chance, where standard has even less. In an ideal, completely same tier, situation, a lot of unbalanced things are actually balanced but only against itself. Gear aside, HAVs are a great example of this. (No, I am not a tanker. I'm not ready to lower myself that far.) 1.7's HAV blunders aside, the non-militia fights between the HAVs are pretty good. Am I saying that's good for everyone? No, not so much. AV is suffering indefinitely and it's showing with HAV spam. The arguments have been "because they're so cheap!", but that's only a minor part in the overall problem. With HAVs being the only thing keeping HAVs in check, that's the extreme imbalance. The fact that AV's chances to killing even moderately able HAV pilot is abysmal plays a part in this. Someone try to correct me. I'll tell you to look at 1.6.
You've completely gotten off point now and ignored my argument in its entirety. We are discussing balance between weapons that are comparable in every way, not Prototype VS lesser gear or the obvious imbalance of AV VS Tanks. It doesn't matter if it is an ADV AR VS an ADV ACR the imbalance is quite clear and the same goes for the PRO versions.
Your idea of balancing on the idea that the Attacker has the best while the Defender has the worst is flawed in so many more ways then you seem to think balancing around equal ground is I don't see the point of pointing out its flaws. I have come to the conclussion that you obviously have no interest in balance and are either trolling or simply blind to the fact that the imbalances in question that are present now aren't changing and no amount of testing or "waiting and seeing" will change that.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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Nosid Katona
HavoK Core RISE of LEGION
130
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Posted - 2014.03.17 10:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Nosid Katona wrote:You've completely gotten off point now and ignored my argument in its entirety. We are discussing balance between weapons that are comparable in every way, not Prototype VS lesser gear or the obvious imbalance of AV VS Tanks.it doesn't matter of it is a ADV AR VS an ADV ACR the imbalance is quite clear and the same goes for the PRO versions.
Your idea of balancing on the idea that the Attacker has the best while the Defender has the worst is flawed in so many more ways then you seem to think balancing around equal ground is I don't see the point of pointing out its flaws. I have come to the conclussion that you obviously have no interest in balance and are either trolling or simply blind to the fact that the imbalances in question that are present now aren't changing and no amount of testing or "waiting and seeing" will change that. Balance around unequal grounds is the preference to me because this is New Eden. Do you know why the new players get mowed down within a second? Why their little peashooters tickle the older players? Do you even care? It's because somebody somewhere thought that everyone has the same gear. If this was Call of Duty, sure, balance around equal grounds. Battlefield? I don't see why not. But Dust 514? Where my shotgun can sneeze on people and blow them away because I skilled into it? Where my CR can snipe and two burst mediums? Are you serious?
Again your missing the point. This may be New Eden, but this fact is this instance is insignifigant and changes nothing in the discussion we are currently having. This isn't about noob VS vet, COD/BF VS DUST, or any of that other nonsense you continue to spew. This is about an inherent imbalance between two comparable weapons of the same tier, SP, and in the hands of equally skilled players.
The fact remains; Weapon A shouldn't be all around better then weapon B in all situations, especially if both weapons serve the same purpose on the battlefield and function nearly identically. This is the case with the AR vs the ACR, the ACR outperforms the AR stat wise in 99-100% of the time in the AR's own role. This is an imbalance and must be adressed; The fact that this is New Eden and "HTFU" and all that other tripe remains moot.
Vae Victis
Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
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