DUST Search - Caldari Assault questions

Dunk Mujunk wrote:

Shields are broken and have been broken. Next time you are in a fire fight watch how fast your shields vanish. Its been that way ever since they buffed armor around like 1.4 or something (can't remember). Unless CCP is doing something to shields they haven't talked about, nothing will be changing for 1.8. You will not need weapon prof or even full damage to cut through shields, which also makes the CR and RR still the top dog for post 1.8. AR will be sh*t on royaly, and the ScR will feel the pinch as well.

The claim extenders are better than damage mods right now is flawed and incorrect. Lets be generous and say a complex shield extender gives you 90 hp (im over estimating as im away from my system). And lets say an un damage modded gek with no prof does 30 damage per bullet (under estimating). That means 3 bullets from a gek takes out a complex shield extender. How long does it take to fire 3 bullets from a gek? Easily under a half second, lets say exactly .5 seconds for easy maths.

That means that with a gek (and all bullets landing of course) you can burn through 3 complex shield extenders in 1.5 seconds with an un modded un prof enhanced AR. Which says you are giving up 3 slots for an extra 1.5 seconds of life. And again, im ballparking and the gek actually does more damage, and shields protect less.

Or you can take those same three slots and turn them into an extra 16% damage with damage mods (again ballpark) which combine with weapon prof (on profs that boost damage) becomes a 31% damage boost.

The argument shield extenders are better than damage mods is stupid, and there is a reason nearly everyone stacks damage, not shields. And unless there are some unmentioned changes, damage mods will still be stacked over shields post 1.8.

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Xirian Fin Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 3	Posted - 2014.03.16 13:40:00 - [1] - Quote Ive seen a couple of threads about how the caldari assault suits are not going to be that great, and i have heard ppl in the game in chat saying the same thing. what im having trouble understanding is why? i know they are shields and armor is considered better but i like the hit and run style of shields compared to the brawling that armor can do. i have looked at the dev blog and and the numbers but i guess maybe i dont know the the math behind it to truly understand why people are saying its going to be the worst of the 4 assault suits. thanks for any info Yup
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2085	Posted - 2014.03.16 13:42:00 - [2] - Quote Xirian Fin wrote: Ive seen a couple of threads about how the caldari assault suits are not going to be that great, and i have heard ppl in the game in chat saying the same thing. what im having trouble understanding is why? i know they are shields and armor is considered better but i like the hit and run style of shields compared to the brawling that armor can do. i have looked at the dev blog and and the numbers but i guess maybe i dont know the the math behind it to truly understand why people are saying its going to be the worst of the 4 assault suits. thanks for any info by comparison For the Federation!
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 460	Posted - 2014.03.16 13:44:00 - [3] - Quote still better than any Gallente item in the game. Unleash the Fogwoggler
Scott Knight Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 49	Posted - 2014.03.16 13:47:00 - [4] - Quote Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1914	Posted - 2014.03.16 13:48:00 - [5] - Quote Any suit can be great. It's up to the user's capability to see it become great. "Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara I'm waiting for my G-I suit. It's what I want.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 811	Posted - 2014.03.16 15:18:00 - [6] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Isn't that significantly offset with the major nerf to damage mods? Suddenly those highs lots need something going other than 2 or 3 damage mods. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Th3rdSun L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 639	Posted - 2014.03.16 15:42:00 - [7] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. And this is the reason why I feel like the armor plates and shield extenders should be on the same module,either high or low,and put all other modules on the opposide side.I think this would balance things out more than we all realize right now.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2086	Posted - 2014.03.16 15:45:00 - [8] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. No its because there are only two useful mods in the highs for armor suits, and there are many mods in the lows (some that don't even belong) that ARE useful but not as useful as armor. For the Federation!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 743	Posted - 2014.03.16 16:09:00 - [9] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Thats the argument from those who don't understand the game, there were severeal threads clearly showng that extenders are better compared to damage mods pre 1.8 by a small margin in 1.8 by a good margin. Oh and most greatly underestimate the power of speed and mobility they see just Hp, hp, hp (I guess they are alwasy standing still when in a firefight). The only thing thats bad about the cal assault is the racial bonus. 5% to reload speed is not that amazing if you consider all weapons affected have already fat reloads...
Scott Knight Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 50	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:01:00 - [10] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Isn't that significantly offset with the major nerf to damage mods? Suddenly those highs slots need something going other than 2 or 3 damage mods. Yeah, this may not be the case in 1.8, but it is currently the case. Hopefully everything will work out and it will be better. I still think armor tanks are going to be all damage mods though. So nothing really is going to change. You have the most hp and do the most damage, so armor tank is still going to be the best way to go.

Scott Knight Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 50	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:07:00 - [11] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Thats the argument from those who don't understand the game, there were severeal threads clearly showng that extenders are better compared to damage mods pre 1.8 by a small margin in 1.8 by a good margin. Oh and most greatly underestimate the power of speed and mobility they see just Hp, hp, hp (I guess they are alwasy standing still when in a firefight). The only thing thats bad about the cal assault is the racial bonus. 5% to reload speed is not that amazing if you consider all weapons affected have already fat reloads... The problem is that extenders are not better than armor mods (or even equal to them). It doesn't matter if they are better than damage mods or not. What mattes is if they are comparable to armor mods. Obviously you would need to take into consideration as to what you replace the armor mods with. What matters most here is the skill of those people playing the game. I would think on average, for the most players, armor trumps shield always. Are there some players who can use shields and speed and scanners, etc. to their advantage and outperform an armor tank? Sure. But that doesn't apply to most people playing the game. So in general for most people armor is always the way to go.
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 625	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:56:00 - [12] - Quote Shields are broken and have been broken. Next time you are in a fire fight watch how fast your shields vanish. Its been that way ever since they buffed armor around like 1.4 or something (can't remember). Unless CCP is doing something to shields they haven't talked about, nothing will be changing for 1.8. You will not need weapon prof or even full damage to cut through shields, which also makes the CR and RR still the top dog for post 1.8. AR will be sh*t on royaly, and the ScR will feel the pinch as well. The claim extenders are better than damage mods right now is flawed and incorrect. Lets be generous and say a complex shield extender gives you 90 hp (im over estimating as im away from my system). And lets say an un damage modded gek with no prof does 30 damage per bullet (under estimating). That means 3 bullets from a gek takes out a complex shield extender. How long does it take to fire 3 bullets from a gek? Easily under a half second, lets say exactly .5 seconds for easy maths. That means that with a gek (and all bullets landing of course) you can burn through 3 complex shield extenders in 1.5 seconds with an un modded un prof enhanced AR. Which says you are giving up 3 slots for an extra 1.5 seconds of life. And again, im ballparking and the gek actually does more damage, and shields protect less. Or you can take those same three slots and turn them into an extra 16% damage with damage mods (again ballpark) which combine with weapon prof (on profs that boost damage) becomes a 31% damage boost. The argument shield extenders are better than damage mods is stupid, and there is a reason nearly everyone stacks damage, not shields. And unless there are some unmentioned changes, damage mods will still be stacked over shields post 1.8. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 1002	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:57:00 - [13] - Quote They're good. *Assassination is my thing.*
M McManus 434	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:57:00 - [14] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Isn't that significantly offset with the major nerf to damage mods? Suddenly those highs slots need something going other than 2 or 3 damage mods. Yeah, this may not be the case in 1.8, but it is currently the case. Hopefully everything will work out and it will be better. I still think armor tanks are going to be all damage mods though. So nothing really is going to change. You have the most hp and do the most damage, so armor tank is still going to be the best way to go. But no one is looking at the damage reduction if a stacked armor suit goes up against a stacked shield suit and using a combat rifle etc.. Their going to have a hard time chewing through 500 shields.. If the caldari loyalist using a rail rifle goes up against a purely armor suit they'll drop quick regardless of damage mods.. Although I think Caldari should get a bigger bonus to shields to compensate for the damage mods being in the high slots... The only thing I see 1.8 doing is enforcing the need to dual tank all hail reborn slayer logi 1.8.....
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1158	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:59:00 - [15] - Quote Xirian Fin wrote: Ive seen a couple of threads about how the caldari assault suits are not going to be that great, and i have heard ppl in the game in chat saying the same thing. what im having trouble understanding is why? i know they are shields and armor is considered better but i like the hit and run style of shields compared to the brawling that armor can do. i have looked at the dev blog and and the numbers but i guess maybe i dont know the the math behind it to truly understand why people are saying its going to be the worst of the 4 assault suits. thanks for any info - Less CPU and PG... You'd need to Equip a CPU module for to fit anything in it... There goes one Low slot - Reload Bonus Compared to the useful Shield Recharge rate Bonus - Penalty For Shield Extenders - Useless Shield Regulators - Mostly it's the lolLOGI suits
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 625	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:05:00 - [16] - Quote M McManus wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Isn't that significantly offset with the major nerf to damage mods? Suddenly those highs slots need something going other than 2 or 3 damage mods. Yeah, this may not be the case in 1.8, but it is currently the case. Hopefully everything will work out and it will be better. I still think armor tanks are going to be all damage mods though. So nothing really is going to change. You have the most hp and do the most damage, so armor tank is still going to be the best way to go. But no one is looking at the damage reduction if a stacked armor suit goes up against a stacked shield suit and using a combat rifle etc.. Their going to have a hard time chewing through 500 shields.. If the caldari loyalist using a rail rifle goes up against a purely armor suit they'll drop quick regardless of damage mods.. Although I think Caldari should get a bigger bonus to shields to compensate for the damage mods being in the high slots... The only thing I see 1.8 doing is enforcing the need to dual tank all hail reborn slayer logi 1.8..... Logi CPU/PG is getting raped, slayer logis won't be nearly as viable or effective. The Amarr proto logi will be roughly using the same amount of CPU/PG i have on my min assault currently. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Aramis Madrigal SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 163	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:08:00 - [17] - Quote I think extended TTK in 1.8 will benefit shield tankers. Prolonged engagements with periods where combatants lose contact will tend to give an advantage to shield tanked suits. In 1.7, eHP was king because most engagements saw the death of one of those involved. In 1.8, I expect more hostile contact where both sides survive (at least for a little while), regroup, regen and reposition. I see armor vs. tank balanced along the lines of ability to absorb damage over time rather than eHP over the short term. Ideally, armor tanked suits survive better in high alpha damage environments and shield tanks suits survive better in more sustained but intermittent damage environments. Perfect balance would be curating TTK such that the mean is at the point where the survival ability of each tank type intersect. Thus, the cal assault might not be awful, particularly if most people continue to use projectile weapons. -Aramis
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 752	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:12:00 - [18] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: Shields are broken and have been broken. Next time you are in a fire fight watch how fast your shields vanish. Its been that way ever since they buffed armor around like 1.4 or something (can't remember). Unless CCP is doing something to shields they haven't talked about, nothing will be changing for 1.8. You will not need weapon prof or even full damage to cut through shields, which also makes the CR and RR still the top dog for post 1.8. AR will be sh*t on royaly, and the ScR will feel the pinch as well. The claim extenders are better than damage mods right now is flawed and incorrect. Lets be generous and say a complex shield extender gives you 90 hp (im over estimating as im away from my system). And lets say an un damage modded gek with no prof does 30 damage per bullet (under estimating). That means 3 bullets from a gek takes out a complex shield extender. How long does it take to fire 3 bullets from a gek? Easily under a half second, lets say exactly .5 seconds for easy maths. That means that with a gek (and all bullets landing of course) you can burn through 3 complex shield extenders in 1.5 seconds with an un modded un prof enhanced AR. Which says you are giving up 3 slots for an extra 1.5 seconds of life. And again, im ballparking and the gek actually does more damage, and shields protect less. Or you can take those same three slots and turn them into an extra 16% damage with damage mods (again ballpark) which combine with weapon prof (on profs that boost damage) becomes a 31% damage boost. The argument shield extenders are better than damage mods is stupid, and there is a reason nearly everyone stacks damage, not shields. And unless there are some unmentioned changes, damage mods will still be stacked over shields post 1.8. Honestly nothing has changed in regard to shields since the armor buff for a long time (until CCP introduced a harmless penalty to shields). So IF shields don't work for you just because armor got buffed, then you really should ask yourself if you are using shields the right way. I like shields, I like them so much that I even shield tank my gal scout and guess what I enjoy that suit and no I rarel use armor mods on my gal scout. Nearly all of my fitting are dedicated to ewar or biotics (ok on my proto fits I also have reppers)
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 752	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:15:00 - [19] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Scott Knight wrote: Its not just about the shield numbers. You have to account for the fact that if you run armor you can also run damage mods, if you run shields you can't run damage mods. The imbalance between shields and armor occurs for this reason. Thats the argument from those who don't understand the game, there were severeal threads clearly showng that extenders are better compared to damage mods pre 1.8 by a small margin in 1.8 by a good margin. Oh and most greatly underestimate the power of speed and mobility they see just Hp, hp, hp (I guess they are alwasy standing still when in a firefight). The only thing thats bad about the cal assault is the racial bonus. 5% to reload speed is not that amazing if you consider all weapons affected have already fat reloads... The problem is that extenders are not better than armor mods (or even equal to them). It doesn't matter if they are better than damage mods or not. What mattes is if they are comparable to armor mods. Obviously you would need to take into consideration as to what you replace the armor mods with. What matters most here is the skill of those people playing the game. I would think on average, for the most players, armor trumps shield always. Are there some players who can use shields and speed and scanners, etc. to their advantage and outperform an armor tank? Sure. But that doesn't apply to most people playing the game. So in general for most people armor is always the way to go. Extenders work different less HP fast recovery they were never meant for an upright confrontation with armor users. Use speed flank get into back and shoot with weapons dealing more than 400 dps even heavily tanked suits go down fast. Also consider the speed penalty of armor has roughly double the effect on strafe speed, so highly armored suits are easy to track...
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 625	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:15:00 - [20] - Quote For a scout i can buy the benefits of shields but not on an assault or heavy or logi. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 752	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:19:00 - [21] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: Shields are broken and have been broken. Next time you are in a fire fight watch how fast your shields vanish. Its been that way ever since they buffed armor around like 1.4 or something (can't remember). Unless CCP is doing something to shields they haven't talked about, nothing will be changing for 1.8. You will not need weapon prof or even full damage to cut through shields, which also makes the CR and RR still the top dog for post 1.8. AR will be sh*t on royaly, and the ScR will feel the pinch as well. The claim extenders are better than damage mods right now is flawed and incorrect. Lets be generous and say a complex shield extender gives you 90 hp (im over estimating as im away from my system). And lets say an un damage modded gek with no prof does 30 damage per bullet (under estimating). That means 3 bullets from a gek takes out a complex shield extender. How long does it take to fire 3 bullets from a gek? Easily under a half second, lets say exactly .5 seconds for easy maths. That means that with a gek (and all bullets landing of course) you can burn through 3 complex shield extenders in 1.5 seconds with an un modded un prof enhanced AR. Which says you are giving up 3 slots for an extra 1.5 seconds of life. And again, im ballparking and the gek actually does more damage, and shields protect less. Or you can take those same three slots and turn them into an extra 16% damage with damage mods (again ballpark) which combine with weapon prof (on profs that boost damage) becomes a 31% damage boost. The argument shield extenders are better than damage mods is stupid, and there is a reason nearly everyone stacks damage, not shields. And unless there are some unmentioned changes, damage mods will still be stacked over shields post 1.8. Based on your example in this 1.5 ses of additional life my CR would dish out 900 hp damage (not even considering the damage profile), even the gek would deal more than 600 damage... The mathematical comparison was done with and shielded suit vs an unshielded damage modded suit (with equal armor rating and weaponry) in this test scenario the shielded suit would win because extenders extend your lifespan more than damage mods reduce shield lifetime...
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 626	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:33:00 - [22] - Quote Well something is getting done wrong or strange because i can absolutely promise you that stacking damage mods trumps shields. 2 complex and 1 enhanced damage mod will blow through large amounts of shields in no time. I live this principle every night. I have tried the shield route and there is a reason i go damage mods. If the AA wasn't......lets say "what it is" i could maybe start to agree with you a little, but i'll tell you right now, i can get through ANY amount of shields you want to through at me in absolutely insanely small amounts of time. Like blink of an eye. Armor is king, and still will be. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge 105	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:43:00 - [23] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: Well something is getting done wrong or strange because i can absolutely promise you that stacking damage mods trumps shields. 2 complex and 1 enhanced damage mod will blow through large amounts of shields in no time. I live this principle every night. I have tried the shield route and there is a reason i go damage mods. If the AA wasn't......lets say "what it is" i could maybe start to agree with you a little, but i'll tell you right now, i can get through ANY amount of shields you want to throw at me in absolutely insanely small amounts of time. Like blink of an eye. Armor is king, and still will be. ......and complex damage mods are getting halved, that changes things.
Kal Kronos L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 207	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:48:00 - [24] - Quote I'll still be running mine, but the bonus is ****. Luckily i have a logi ck.0 also =) What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
Roy Ventus Axis of Chaos 1402	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:49:00 - [25] - Quote People are moaning on both sides of the fence. Can't really tell which one is right and chances are that no one is "right." "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Roy Ventus Axis of Chaos 1402	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:52:00 - [26] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: I'll still be running mine, but the bonus is **. Luckily i have a logi ck.0 also =) o_O Why is the bonus **? You do know that the Rail Rifle, Magsec, and Sniper Rifle are long distance "keep away" weapons right? Every seconds spent reloading extends your vulnerability to someone getting in your comfort zone and demolishing you. A shorter reload time is legit and the Caldari's weapons are the only ones that actually need it. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 629	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:54:00 - [27] - Quote That does change things. But like I said, we are going to have to see how everything plays out, but the way things feel for ME rightnow, without weapon prof, i would still see no issue with cutting through sheilds with 80% of a weapons strength, without damage mods. Which tells me that post 1.8, armor will still be king (like the one guy said earlier in this thread, that recharge penalty is pretty harsh, and i dont quite understand why it was implemented), you will still want to run a CR or RR, and since you are running armor, you can give up highs to damage mods. And since the main enemy we will be facing will be heavies, you will still want that damage boost, even though its about cut in half post 1.8. Again though, this is coming from an assault player. Im sure things are probably different for scouts, especially seeing as how yall perfer not to give up speed. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge 105	Posted - 2014.03.17 17:57:00 - [28] - Quote Roy Ventus wrote: People are moaning on both sides of the fence. Can't really tell which one is right and chances are that no one is "right." The bonus is less than stellar, but the caldari assault is still potentially the best or second best assault suit. Where most people get upset is that the assault suits are still largely unnecessary in light of logi suits. In the case of the caldair logi once fitted you're within 10 hp of the assault, have 2 more equips (which is massively important in pc beyond just lobby games), a better recharge delay and similar speed if not faster because of the extra low you could use to rectify that or get more hp. Generally across the board between logi and assault theres really not a whole lot in favor of the assault people were hoping reshuffling the bonuses would help the assaults edge out a reason for existence and are upset that didnt happen.


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