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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
137
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Posted - 2014.03.15 08:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok here is the deal, what fun is there when this even clearly will give ccp the metrics on how tank spamming is a problem. Even the tankers agree that there is too much tanks since last update. If offensive vehicles would be like orbital strikes there would be a goal to reach in a game like a climax building.
As of now, we have strangely a lot of vehicle spams that cost a tremendous amount of money for not much ISK gain defying all logic for the majority of the player base.
Not only that but having 8 vehicle in ambush On one side cause they are denying the enemy team vehicle reinforcement it boils down to this:
1) do you have an SSD drive, if yes than you are rewarded by spawning faster than other players and call in your tank when no one of the other team as spawned yet when game start.
2)triangulate where enemies are spawning and stay there with 4 other vehicles cleaning the place until game ends.
Most of high sp vehicle users will say i am a total ****** talking about earning vehicle calling but almost all players i talked to fnd its a good idea and reasonable.
Now before you ask, no i am not a tanker of fame but use tanks and assault drop ships and suicide jeeps and run infantry. I have 25 mil spent all over the place not very specialized but very versatile. On the other hand i think it would be a good move game design wise because it would force heavy vehicle users to spend sp not only in the vehicle tree and the other way is also true. So it forces generalisation over ultra specialization. With such a system, i would require no points to call in a lav or normal drop ship for troop transport. Anything for offensive engagement would need a threshold of points.
Frankly right now there is no use for hardeners except being ultra invicible and how its used is simply douche most of the time in dust. There is no denial of objectives its all about wh t csn make me kill things faster thats it. And some players dont care to call in 5 madrugars wort 2.5 milions cause PC has made them uber rich. The current event underlines this.
Thanks in advance for an honnest discussion without too much trolling.
Quebec United CFO
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
2095
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Posted - 2014.03.15 08:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE
Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
137
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Posted - 2014.03.15 08:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
A militia tank at a cost of 60k is already deadlier than a proto suit, please define where your going with that thought.
Quebec United CFO
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ALPHA DECRIPTER
Dragon-Empire
825
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Posted - 2014.03.15 08:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
I am totally ok with both the OP and you lol I hate proto gear and vehicles.
When my proto fits are finished I wouldn't mind the idea of working hard to whip it out. It would be like a BO2 Score streak reward but you get to spam da crap out of it once you've reached the needed score. To add on to this idea make sure that the WP count is personal not full squad. A logi doing his job can switch to his proto logi and really support the team. Tanks and ADS would require fewer WPs because most vehicle specialists don't really have points in anything else and so it's less likely for them to meet the requirements.
0.02 ISK
Scout Tactician
Dance puppets, DANCE!
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Kasote Denzara
A Vulture
1898
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Posted - 2014.03.15 08:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
Ohhh the tears that would create. We would drown the world hundreds of times over!
"Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara
I'm waiting for my G-I suit. It's what I want.
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
137
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Posted - 2014.03.15 16:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Judging by the lack of response so far, it seems nobody wants to delve on the subject. But I think it should be treated in regards to team efforts, Maybe there could be cost for the basic frame, like a militia tank cost 150 point, adv 300.
I would not count in suits because it goes against the monetization principles behind this game. They will have to fix that with tiers the player choose to play in. There is obviously no other way to shield new players to proto stomps. But maybe it will fade at some point when players have spent a huge amount of cash defending their empire in PC.
So still would like to hear about the idea, is it good or bad ?
Quebec United CFO
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Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
1655
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Posted - 2014.03.15 16:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Walking to something available for hacking would take forever. Heavies wouldn't even spawn in until a speed scout drops an uplink near an objective. |
Charlotte O'Dell
Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors
2149
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Posted - 2014.03.15 16:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
okay. you need to get 5 head-shots to use proto, then.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4562
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Posted - 2014.03.15 17:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
-Give everyone a "starter fit" of every suit type, and every vehicle type. These fittings must be awful.
-Everyone has to spawn in to start with in an unmodified starter fit. Modifying the fit raises the WP cost.
-Vehicles cost WP to call in, but no more than protosuits.
-Any fitting will have its cost based on its tier. The highest-tier item in the fitting will be used as the basis for the cost.
This means that an almost all Militia fitting with a Prototype Repair Tool will be treated as Proto and require the maximum amount of WP for a suit. There should probably also be a WP premium for using BPOs, since they are otherwise OP in their saving of ISK.
Or they could stick with the mechanics that work and just fix the ACTUAL PROBLEMS. Un-nerf AV since buffing vehicles was all they really needed. make Swarms viable again, and fix the Plasma Cannon so it's actually a real AV weapon. |
Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1278
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Posted - 2014.03.15 17:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
Also don't forget the other rules!
At 0 WP:
Only basic medium suits and rifles allowed
At 250 WP:
Basic light suits unlocked
All sidearms unlocked
At 500 WP:
Scouts, logistics, assaults, and basic heavy suits unlocked
All light and heavy weapons unlocked
All advanced dropsuits, modules, and weapons unlocked
At 750 WP:
Sentinels are unlocked
1000 WP:
All proto dropsuits, modules, and weapons unlocked
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
138
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Posted - 2014.03.15 17:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mmmm not sure here. Imo we should leave dropsuit level to be controlled by game type that player can select, this is highly not transportable to planetary conquest...
Quebec United CFO
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Second Cerberus
Tested In Production
95
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
We already have two game functions to control the level of gear deployed and the frequency it can be used. Those are SP and ISK.
So we already have functions that could ensure that new players cannot jump in and immediately access high efficiency gear or use it often and that experienced players can access high efficiency gear but do not have the resources to use it continuously or without consequences.
I say high efficiency gear as modules tend to become more efficient as you progress and some MLT gear (like tanks) return a significant general combat efficiency for a relatively low cost.
The problem is that neither of these controls (SP or ISK) is properly calibrated, resulting in new players accessing high efficiency gear and experienced players having the resources to use high efficiency gear continuously.
If SP and ISK controls were working properly some of the "spam" and "stomp" complaints could be resolved.
I don't see how adding a 3rd type of control (WP attainment) would make the game more enjoyable or playable. Adjust the controls we currently have.
"I don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in production." - CCP
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
138
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Your right, It is probably in part to players having hoards of ISK that make these spams appear in the first place. But current AV nerf made it so you need either a team effort to put out a single tank or a tank itself. but if there is too much tanks on either side then the game makes it so you cannot really bring new tactics. For example, even the redline doesnt properly shield against 4 tanks killing any vehicles comming in. Of course, we may see changes with the help of the cloaking device, making it possible to get back in the game with passing the enemy lines and dropping uplinks. That is good for strategy. With even that in mind, matches should start when all troops are on the ground, having a special hardware change to your ps3 to make you appear faster is in my opinion easily avoidable. All players should be on the same hardware, then you will see who has real skill. With that in mind I think that taking objectives and turrets to gain war points and then call in tanks is not unreasonable.... it could even be a whole team effort. When the whole team reaches a threshold, tanks can be called in. So each side will have to make strategic decisions before only relying on killing stomping machines...
Quebec United CFO
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
138
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
For the moment, who calls in the mechanized infantry the fastest in greater number, wins the engagement, no one can argue that after 1.7 has rolled in and even corps in PC where totally removed because its such a game changing mechanic...
Quebec United CFO
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1556
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes, I like this idea. It is called escalation. You start off with the militia starter fits for everything and build up to your protostomping iwin buttons.
On a more serious note GÇö take away the keys from no sp tankers and the problem is solved.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
5715
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
Sure.
Just buff PRO gear to where it has 6x the eHP, 2 60% hardeners, and a Fuel Injector and you have yourself a deal.
AV > HAV > INF > AV | Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
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safura trotsky
Kill Mode Activated
Galactic Skyfleet Empire
41
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:A militia tank at a cost of 60k is already deadlier than a proto suit, please define where your going with that thought.
define "deadlier"
Thanks for picking me up blueberry!...and again...and again...STAHP!!!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
5720
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Operative 1171 Aajli wrote:Yes, I like this idea. It is called escalation. You start off with the militia starter fits for everything and build up to your protostomping iwin buttons.
On a more serious note GÇö take away the keys from no sp tankers and the problem is solved.
So all I have to do is drop 400k SP and I can keep stomping people?
AV > HAV > INF > AV | Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
5720
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
safura trotsky wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:A militia tank at a cost of 60k is already deadlier than a proto suit, please define where your going with that thought. define "deadlier"
The MLT HAV is stronger than a PRO suit, as it has more eHP, resistance, and speed than a PRO suit.
AV > HAV > INF > AV | Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p
69
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, cool.
You have to get 1k war points to use protogear.
id be down with that
Kills-Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
138
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Posted - 2014.03.15 18:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Atiim wrote:safura trotsky wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:A militia tank at a cost of 60k is already deadlier than a proto suit, please define where your going with that thought. define "deadlier" The MLT HAV is stronger than a PRO suit, as it has more eHP, resistance, and speed than a PRO suit.
Exactly ! as it stand, no suit in this game can withstand direct confrontation with a vehicle. This is not bad in itself as it mimics real life a bit. The problem is when those are not really scaled right in terms of ISK value as another did point out as a mechanism of balance.
Now another issue you could raise from the deadlier argument is that for example a LAV has almost as much EHP as a proto heavy. How is it in this game it can roll over the heavy without any form of damage. I know most real life vehicles get wrecked when they run into deers, mooses or otherwise big animals. This has to be fixed also.
Quebec United CFO
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
28
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Posted - 2014.03.15 19:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:
Thanks in advance for an honnest discussion without too much trolling.
Alright, ill let you know how it is from my perspective. im a relatively new player. this is not my first FPS but it is my first Dust/EVE account. I have a total of 6 million SP. With that in mind;
-I dont have access to proto gear. I dont have access to suits where i can stack tons of modules.
-I dont have access to prototype weapons with proficiency and reload and such all maxed out
-I dont have access to the SP it takes to max out armor, shield, module access, ect.
-As a part time player, I dont have the ISK to finance all of the above even if it was unlocked.
-I dont do squads. Being in a squad takes the enjoyment out of the game for me.
With that being said, lets look at the tanks;
-I can access milita tanks. Both start at 59,000ISK with a stock turret equipped. (about 74,000ISK once outfitted)
-If I die once or not at all in a milita tank, thats only -74,000 from the 200,000 i usually get paid
-I can actually help the team by shooting down ADS, keeping other tanks engaged, and making infantry entrench instead of advance.
- I can inflict heavier financial losses on the other team. Lets say I lose 3 tanks in a heated match, but managed to destroy 10 protosuits in the process. That costs me 222,000ISK. But the cost to the other team is 2.5million.
-i can take on the 6 vs 1 squads without losing too much ISK. (3 advanced suits cost= 1 tank)
People are tired of facing squads of 6 or 12 elite fully loaded people going against them. When Im out of a tank, do they line up and wait their turn to fight me 1 vs 1? No, they all jump on me at once and i die and lose a 20,000ISK suit. Sometimes before I even get a shot off.
in a tank, suddenly those 6 people, the tables are turned, and they have to face the same odds I had to face. They can be killed in 2-3 shots suddenly without ever having a chance. When they shoot at me, their proto guns do nothing to my milita tank instead of my milita guns doing nothing to their proto suits.
Honestly, if people played with a bit of honor instead what they do now, i would feel bad using a tank, i really would. But these people go around crushing new players without ever giving a damn. So why should I? If a 6 on 1 fight is what they call fair, then a tank vs infantry is also fair.
When these proto squads give me a fair fight, ill give them a fair fight. |
Gelhad Thremyr
Quebec United
138
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Posted - 2014.03.15 19:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
its the fair grievance we all have to face in pub matches, there is nothing stopping people from hoarding 2 million ISK and then putting tanks non stop in an after-noon of play because the game alllows it, same as proto suits. I remember the message from the dev where they said people dont do the math involved in putting out proto suit, but they made that easy with the district locking going on since the last 3 months. So the easy thing to do would be to better square the rules of engagements because there will always be players with more and less ISK. CCP needs to balance this with good game design.
Tu dira salut +á BloodyQC de ma part Nash...
Quebec United CFO
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