DUST Search - A visual guide to all of the new scout's bonuses

Meee One wrote:

Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

So I got to thinking, and there is an even simplier way to prove what I am talking about, average travel speeds.

What we can do is just take one complete cycle, meaning one rotation of full sprint and then walk /recovery to full stamina, and average it out.

The minmatar:
sprints at 8.3055 m/sec
sprints for 23.65 seconds
walks at 5.65 m/sec
recover takes 3.75 seconds

8.3055*23.65seconds = 196.425075
5.65*3.75 seconds = 21.1875
217.612575 meters over a period 27.4 seconds
Average speed = 7.942 m/sec

The reason I did the math here is just to try to show the process.

Here are the results
Amarr Scout: 7.24 m/sec
Amarr scout (lvl 5): 7.32 m/sec
Caldari scout: 7.39 m/sec
Gallente scout: 7.39 m/sec
Minmatar scout: 7.94 m/sec

Some bonus eh? going from lvl 1 to lvl 5 in amarr scout nets you an average speed gain of 0.8 m/sec.

What about if we fill the lows with green and red bottles? Here is how I placed them:

Amarr/gallente: 2 red 2 green
Caldari:1 red 1 green
Minmatar: 2 red 1 green

Average speeds?
Amarr Scout: 9.39 m/sec
Amarr scout (lvl 5): 9.43 m/sec
Caldari scout: 8.55 m/sec
Gallente scout: 9.65 m/sec
Minmatar scout: 9.69 m/sec

So, even with using just red/green bottles, the amarr scout is still in third place, of course now it only has two slots, and is horrible in comparison to all of the rest of the suits. At least now the caldari suit can fit 4 more high slots, and the minmatar has 3 open high slots.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, if the average speed(minmatar @ 7.94 m/sec) is even higher than the max sprint speed is(amarr at 7.715 m/sec), then you could give the amarr infinite sprint and it would never catch the minmatar.

Oh you mean an armor based race (amarr) can't keep up with a speed based race (minmatar)?
Please continue to try to convince me how the slowest race should be able to outrun the fastest.

While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.


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Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 500	Posted - 2014.03.14 22:39:00 - [1] - Quote Amarr: Stamina/recovery (running) Bonus versus no bonus (the only difference is those gaps) Caldari: Scan Precision Scan Radius Gallente: Suit Dampening Scan Radius Minmatar: Hacking speed Nova Knife Please CCP, I don't know a better way to show the imbalance. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 502	Posted - 2014.03.14 23:41:00 - [2] - Quote Brokerib wrote: This may also assist. Just for context, the changes in base stam for the new 1.8 numbers has meant that the Amarr recharge time has gone from 4.8ish seconds for full recovery, to over 6.5. The Amarr clearly outperforms the Cal/Gal in movement, but I think upping the stam recharge rate to 50 would be appropriate so they can properly compete with the Mini through endurance vs speed. And just a word of advice to anyone looking to scout, never use a complex cardio, always use an advanced one. The lop sided bonus (+50% max, +80% recharge) means that your full recharge rate becomes quicker, which means more jumping. Proto is Level 5 Biotics, 1 x Complex Kin Cat, 1 x Complex Cardio. Amarr Proto calculations include the Level 5 Scout bonus (+25% to stam recharge and max stam) Minmatar GÇô Basic (Proto) Run: 5.65m/s (5.93m/s) Sprint: 7.9m/s (9.34m/s) Stamina: 225 (496.1) Recharge: 60/sec (132.3/sec) GÇô 3.75 sec to fully recharge Sprint 100m: 12.7 sec (10.7 sec) Range to depletion: 177.75m (463.3m) Range over 60 sec: 457m (547.6m) Amarr GÇô Basic (Proto) Run: 5.25m/s (5.51m/s) Sprint: 7.4m/s (8.75m/s) Stamina: 275 (757.97) Recharge: 40/sec (110.25) GÇô 6.875 sec to fully recharge Sprint 100m: 13.5 sec (11.43 sec) Range to depletion: 203.5m (662.25m) Range over 60 sec: 429.2m (525m) Galentte/Caldari GÇô Run: 5.45m/s (5.72) Sprint: 7.6m/s (8.98) Stamina: 200 (441) Recharge: 30/sec (66.15) GÇô 6.67 sec to fully recharge Sprint 100m: 13.16 sec (11.13 sec) Range to depletion: 152m (396m) Range over 60 sec: 427.4m (517m) I do appreciate the extra calculation, believe me, but I do have a small issue here. I am not sure how you got some of those numbers. For instance: Amarr Scout (lvl 5 biotics) walk 5.25m/sec sprint 7.7175 m/sec sprint with 1 complex kincat 8.698 m/sec Cal/Gal Scout (lvl 5 biotics) walk 5.45m/sec sprint 8.0115 m/sec sprint with 1 complex kincat 9.026 m/sec Minmatar Scout (lvl 5 biotics) walk 5.65m/sec sprint 8.3055 m/sec sprint with 1 complex kincat 9.315 m/sec is what those basic numbers should be, as no skill effects your base walking speed. and your sprint speed (with those kincats) should be 1.05(biotics lvl 5)1.4(sprint modifier)1.126(biotics 5 kincat)*walk speed. Even so, as you can see, all of the other bonuses set the scouts far apart from their contemporaries. Mostly to the tune of 1 complex module+. As we look at the amarr bonus and it's effects, the amarr scout only becomes competitive with the gallente/caldari suits after wasting it's entire bonus, and remains woefully inadequate next to the minmatar suit. In the end, there is literally no reason to go amarr scout unless you think 30 HP outweighs faster strafing, higher jumping, and of course the choice of bonuses the other suits offer. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 505	Posted - 2014.03.15 00:14:00 - [3] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Your charts mean nothing without context. You honestly can't find the context in the charts themselves? Look at the gaps the other bonuses produce between the bonused suits and it's contemporaries in operation. The space of that gap is quite large, and requires at the very minimum one complex module for the non-bonused suits to catch up to. This just shows that for the most part, all of the suits perform some function at a much higher level than the others. This also shows that these suits will always be the very best platform for the function they specialize in, and that no other suit can match it's performance. Now look at the amarr charts, with the bonus there is no gap. In fact the amarr suit, with the bonus, struggles (and fails) to keep up with the BASE attributes of the other suits. Is that enough context? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 509	Posted - 2014.03.15 01:17:00 - [4] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Amarr: Stamina/recovery (running) Bonus versus no bonus (the only difference is those gaps) Caldari: Scan Precision Scan Radius Gallente: Suit Dampening Scan Radius Minmatar: Hacking speed Nova Knife Please CCP, I don't know a better way to show the imbalance. atleast use the correct type of graph. And what type of graph would that be? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 537	Posted - 2014.03.15 17:52:00 - [5] - Quote So I got to thinking, and there is an even simplier way to prove what I am talking about, average travel speeds. What we can do is just take one complete cycle, meaning one rotation of full sprint and then walk /recovery to full stamina, and average it out. The minmatar: sprints at 8.3055 m/sec sprints for 23.65 seconds walks at 5.65 m/sec recover takes 3.75 seconds 8.305523.65seconds = 196.425075 5.653.75 seconds = 21.1875 217.612575 meters over a period 27.4 seconds Average speed = 7.942 m/sec The reason I did the math here is just to try to show the process. Here are the results Amarr Scout: 7.24 m/sec Amarr scout (lvl 5): 7.32 m/sec Caldari scout: 7.39 m/sec Gallente scout: 7.39 m/sec Minmatar scout: 7.94 m/sec Some bonus eh? going from lvl 1 to lvl 5 in amarr scout nets you an average speed gain of 0.8 m/sec. What about if we fill the lows with green and red bottles? Here is how I placed them: Amarr/gallente: 2 red 2 green Caldari:1 red 1 green Minmatar: 2 red 1 green Average speeds? Amarr Scout: 9.39 m/sec Amarr scout (lvl 5): 9.43 m/sec Caldari scout: 8.55 m/sec Gallente scout: 9.65 m/sec Minmatar scout: 9.69 m/sec So, even with using just red/green bottles, the amarr scout is still in third place, of course now it only has two slots, and is horrible in comparison to all of the rest of the suits. At least now the caldari suit can fit 4 more high slots, and the minmatar has 3 open high slots. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 545	Posted - 2014.03.16 07:41:00 - [6] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Amarr: Stamina/recovery (running) Bonus versus no bonus (the only difference is those gaps) Caldari: Scan Precision Scan Radius Gallente: Suit Dampening Scan Radius Minmatar: Hacking speed Nova Knife Please CCP, I don't know a better way to show the imbalance. atleast use the correct type of graph. And what type of graph would that be? Not a line graph. Line graphs are for showing change over time. I feel a bar graph would be better here. I have to admit that I do not have the greatest proficiency in creating graphs. I can easily supply the data though if you would like to do it. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 559	Posted - 2014.03.16 17:20:00 - [7] - Quote Meee Two wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Amarr: Stamina capacity(running time) Stamina recovery (the only difference is those gaps) Caldari: Scan Precision Scan Radius Gallente: Suit Dampening Scan Radius Minmatar: Hacking speed Nova Knife Please CCP, I don't know a better way to show the imbalance. FTFY No other scout will be able to equip a single module to boost both their inherent bonuses. Yes that is part of the issue of why the amarr bonus sucks. How many modules does it take to up stamina and stamina recovery? Just one. What about all of the rest of the scouts? Their bonuses encompass stats that require two different modules to boost. So, even though they are written as seperate bonuses, it really is just one bonus that the amarr is geting versus the 2-3 bonuses everyone else is getting. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 560	Posted - 2014.03.16 17:37:00 - [8] - Quote Meee One wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I got to thinking, and there is an even simplier way to prove what I am talking about, average travel speeds. What we can do is just take one complete cycle, meaning one rotation of full sprint and then walk /recovery to full stamina, and average it out. The minmatar: sprints at 8.3055 m/sec sprints for 23.65 seconds walks at 5.65 m/sec recover takes 3.75 seconds 8.305523.65seconds = 196.425075 5.653.75 seconds = 21.1875 217.612575 meters over a period 27.4 seconds Average speed = 7.942 m/sec The reason I did the math here is just to try to show the process. Here are the results Amarr Scout: 7.24 m/sec Amarr scout (lvl 5): 7.32 m/sec Caldari scout: 7.39 m/sec Gallente scout: 7.39 m/sec Minmatar scout: 7.94 m/sec Some bonus eh? going from lvl 1 to lvl 5 in amarr scout nets you an average speed gain of 0.8 m/sec. What about if we fill the lows with green and red bottles? Here is how I placed them: Amarr/gallente: 2 red 2 green Caldari:1 red 1 green Minmatar: 2 red 1 green Average speeds? Amarr Scout: 9.39 m/sec Amarr scout (lvl 5): 9.43 m/sec Caldari scout: 8.55 m/sec Gallente scout: 9.65 m/sec Minmatar scout: 9.69 m/sec So, even with using just red/green bottles, the amarr scout is still in third place, of course now it only has two slots, and is horrible in comparison to all of the rest of the suits. At least now the caldari suit can fit 4 more high slots, and the minmatar has 3 open high slots. EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, if the average speed(minmatar @ 7.94 m/sec) is even higher than the max sprint speed is(amarr at 7.715 m/sec), then you could give the amarr infinite sprint and it would never catch the minmatar. Oh you mean an armor based race (amarr) can't keep up with a speed based race (minmatar)? Please continue to try to convince me how the slowest race should be able to outrun the fastest. Are you being deliberately ignorant or does that just come naturally? So, the most advantageous test that could be used when measuring the benefit of a stamina bonus would be an endurance type of run. One where speed might not be as important as longevity. After going over that and finding out that a stamina bonus is more or less uselsss, another way to analyze it presented itself, average speed. When you average the speed you take into account stamina and stamina recharge along with sprinting speed. The results once again speak for themselves. I am not trying to say in any way, shape, or form that the amarr should be faster sprinters or faster in movement. What I am saying is that the claim "Amarr will be able to run all day" is a bullsh-t claim because it doesn't matter, the minmatar will cover more ground at all times. The proof bears out that the amarr suit will barely keep up with the gallente and caldari post bonus. TLDR: I wasn't trying to convince you that the amarr were supposed to be fast, only that the stamina bonus is completely useless. I succeeded. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 560	Posted - 2014.03.16 19:55:00 - [9] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Amarr: Stamina/recovery (running) Bonus versus no bonus (the only difference is those gaps) Caldari: Scan Precision Scan Radius Gallente: Suit Dampening Scan Radius Minmatar: Hacking speed Nova Knife Please CCP, I don't know a better way to show the imbalance. atleast use the correct type of graph. And what type of graph would that be? Not a line graph. Line graphs are for showing change over time. I feel a bar graph would be better here. Updated OP with bar graphs. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 572	Posted - 2014.03.17 03:24:00 - [10] - Quote Fixed a graph link While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 585	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:57:00 - [11] - Quote bump (I have been sick the last few days) While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 587	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:22:00 - [12] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Takron Nistrom wrote: Looks like a buncha lines Indeed, it is the essence of a graph. The true test of knowledge comes in reading the lines, even sometimes between the lines. Do this, and you will achieve enlightenment. I regret that I have but one upvote to give. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 612	Posted - 2014.03.26 02:23:00 - [13] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Damn... Yep While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 804	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:31:00 - [14] - Quote Bumped cause I need something. Fixing swarms