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1.8 Will nerf the shotgun. Please don't change proficiency!!!

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Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1445	Posted - 2014.03.14 03:39:00 - [1] - Quote The shotgun in DUST 514 is a terrible weapon. There are many reason for this, from people having 100% movement speed walking backwards to damage profile when facing armor tanked or dual tanked suits, or how all the new maps have virtually 0 cover in between medium range complexes like long, narrow hallways... Although in the perfect settings it can be used to great effect Coming in 1.8 the proficiency skill is being changed from +3% to RoF to +X% to shield damage per level. But IGÇÖll show here why change proficiency to damage without affecting the shotgunGÇÖs innate RoF is detrimental to this weapon far more than anything else. Let us first take a magical place, we call this GÇ£The White Room.GÇ¥ Within the white room, all weapons are shooting each other within optimal ranges and bullets never miss. Getting into the nuances of how many pellets miss, how often people get behind cover or however unlikely, a weapon has enough dispersion to actually miss a target without error from the user >_> But before we start firing these weapons weGÇÖll need some dummies. Consider we start with the comparison of the Assault Rifle and Shotgun, both Gallente Hybrid Blaster profiles weGÇÖll face them off against their nemeses, the Caldari. First off, weGÇÖll pit our fellows against 2 friends in Assault C-1. Perhaps one player is teaching another and has decided to use the same tier suit but the guy on the right had just specGÇÖd into Assault and only has minimal skills, while the guy on the right has maxed out their core skills and role suits. The guy on the right has 2 basic shield extender, a basic armor plate, and a basic armor repairer. He has level 1 in appropriate Upgrade skills to unlock the extender, plate, and repairer and has skilled into each at level 1. The guy on the left is running a complex shield extender, a basic shield extender and 2 basic reactive plates The newbie is going to have 192 armor and 265 shields. against a blaster profile that means he has (192/0.9)+(265/1.1) = 454 EHP This good fellow, teaching his little buddy, has 227 armor and 359 shields, so (227/.9)+(359/1.1)= 651EHP Lets look at a basic Assault Rifle, 30 damage a bullet with 750 RPM. ItGÇÖll take 16 bullets to kill the first guy and 22 to kill the second. 750 RPM = 12.5 per second. or 1 bullet every 0.08 seconds. 16/12.5 = 1.28 seconds 22/12.5= 1.76 seconds The basic shotgun does 40 damage per pellet and shoots 12 pellets. each round does 480 damage. It fires off 85.7 RPM or 1.4 rounds a second or 1 round every 0.7 seconds. Wow, though, in 0.7 seconds or as soon as the shot fires the shotgun OHKOs newbie and take 1.4 seconds to kill the seconds guy. The shotgun sounds great! Sure that optimal range may be a problem, but if I get in it IGÇÖll win! Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1445	Posted - 2014.03.14 03:40:00 - [2] - Quote Now, letGÇÖs have a face-off Gallente vs Gallente, the worst match up. Both sides know each otherGÇÖs strengths and weaknesses and no one has the weapon profile bonus. Lets compare a new guy and a vet against the basic weapons again. A basic shield extender, 2 basic plates, and a basic armor repairer, that sound reasonable? This guy has 148 shields and 351 armor. A basic shield extender, 2 enhanced armor plates and an enhanced armor repairer, on a G-1 Assault. This a reasonable fit? gives the vet 174 shields and 515 armor. Low SP guy has 519 EHP, vet has 732 EHP A basic AR takes 1.44 seconds to kill the first and 2 seconds to kill the vet The basic shotgun takes 1.4 seconds for the first and 1.4 seconds for the second. Ok. Yeah. I really like the shotgun. At basic level it seems really awesome vs basic suits. But what if youGÇÖre one of those people thatGÇÖve been farming ISK from PC, because I know I was , so I have the ISK to run full proto for the next few years. Lets look at proto weapons taking on those damn scrubs that dared to bring themselves onto the field without their proto gear too! What? one guy doesnGÇÖt even have the SP to do it? thatGÇÖs his fault for being a scrub. -__- Duvolle AR vs the Low SP C-1 takes 1.12 seconds. Takes out the vet in 1.6 seconds. CreoDron Shotgun vs the Low SP C-1 takes 0.7 seconds and 1.4 against the second. Oh-kaaay. Why did I pull out my CreoDron if it took the same number of shots? The AR clearly gained an advantage but I did not. How about against the other guys? proto AR takes 1.28 against GÇ£the scrubGÇ¥ and 1.84 seconds against the vet. The proto shotty? oh, hells yeah. one-shot that first guy for 0.7 seconds. The second? aww 1.4 again. Oh. But wait! if that first guy just invest a few thousand SP into armor or shield upgrades then he too takes 1.4 seconds with both. . . well. Hmm. thatGÇÖs sad. But wait!!! I forgot, IGÇÖm a proto-stomper. What am I doing without any damage mods or proficiency on my weapons?! In the new dev-blog on the 5th, they say they were changing the numbers to proficiency, it may stay at 3 percent, it could drop to 1 percent per level, or even increase to 5% per level. Having proficiency no longer affect damage but affect EHP instead. For this little project I and going on an assumption of the numbers staying at 3% per level to appropriate damage profile bonus. At level 5 the damage profile of these weapons become 90% to armor and 125% to shields So we now have 4 values to use. prof 5 basic gear and prof 5 proto gear, for 2 weapons Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1445	Posted - 2014.03.14 03:40:00 - [3] - Quote C-1 guys now have 425EHP and 539EHP G-1 guys have 497EHP and 711EHP. 1.2 seconds against the lower SP C-1, 1.44 seconds against the C-1 vet, 1.36 against the low SP G-1, and 1.92 seconds against the high SP G-1. Prof V Duvolle AR has TTK of 1.04, 1.36, 1.28 and 1.76 With the AR the most significant difference is clearly shown against the high shield HP suit, the rest it really only saved about a single bullet. If changing TTK was the goal here, yeah, I love it. It isnGÇÖt OP and so demanding to max out that skill anymore but it really helps in those niche situations against your racial weaponGÇÖs nemesisGÇÖ suit. But letGÇÖs go back to the basic shotgun with proficiency 5: 0.7 seconds vs LSP C-1, 1.4 against the rest. What!? why did I even bother putting SP in proficiency if nothing changed? But. but... what if it was left alone and shotgun proficiency changed RoF? well then... 0.595 seconds vs LSP C-1 and 1.19 seconds against the rest. 1.19 seconds? that sounds amazing?! Can I have that? what do you mean GÇ£no?GÇ¥ [:tear] CreoDron has the same numbers as it did the first time around. Not very useful it seems to pub-stomp with proto shotguns. adding a small amount of damage to the shotgun does not change the number of rounds needed to kill anyone, because of this the Proficiency skill in Shotguns is just a waste of a playerGÇÖs SP. If youGÇÖre still around this far into the post you can see IGÇÖm getting lazy with organization, well, itGÇÖs going to get worse. Fear not! however for at the top of this post there is a fancy link to a nice table I made to incorporate all the data. This could become quite the arduous project if I went around doing each class of suit, so lets just jump to basic Caldari Sentinel, basic Gallente sentinel and then weGÇÖll make proto fits! IGÇÖm not entirely comfortable with the meta behind Caldari Sentinel fittings, so if someone would like, please make a better theoretical build and I will update the chart. LSP Caldari Sentinel: 2 basic shield extenders, basic armor repairer HSP Caldari Sentinel: 1 complex shield extender basic shield extender, enhanced armor plate LSP CS: 409 armor, 596 shields. LSP EHP: 1027. HSP EHP: 958 HSP CS: 614 armor, 753 shields LSP EHP: 1608. HSP EHP: 1503 Basic AR takes 2.56 seconds against the low SP caldari sentinel, while the basic AR with prof V take 2.56 seconds Duvolle AR takes 2.56 seconds against the low SP caldari sentinel, while with prof 5 it takes 2.4 seconds The basic shotgun, with or without proficiency, takes 2.1 seconds to fell this heavy. The CreoDron, with or without proficiency takes 1.4 seconds to slay him Against the High SP Caldari Sentinel the basic AR takes 4.32 seconds and 4.08 with prof V. The Duvolle AR takes 3.92 seconds and 3.68 seconds with prof V Against the High SP Caldari Sentinel the basic shotgun takes 2.8 seconds with or without proficiency Now letGÇÖs look at a Gallente Sentinel. No resistance bonuses apply because theyGÇÖre the same race so It may be different. on the LSP GS lets give them a basic plate, basic shield extender, and basic armor repairer. with the pre-reqs and modules it has 431 shields and 617 armor. The HSP GS will have a complex damage mod and 2 complex armor plates, because they know self-reps just arenGÇÖt fast enough and to rely on rep-tools and rep-hives... So a shield HP of 487 and armor HP of 953 armor (btw, a G-1 sentinel has the fitting requirements for this, an MH-82 and a basic scrambler pistol and a basic flux grenade with maxed out stats.) So our LSP GS has an EHP of 1070 against no proficiency and EHP of 1030 against Prof V Our HSP GS has an EHP of 1500 against no proficiency and an EHP of 1448 Our basic AR takes 2.88 seconds to fell the LSP GS, and with prof V it takes 2.8 seconds Our Duvolle AR takes 2.64 seconds to fell the LSP GS, and with prof V it takes 2.56 Our basic AR takes 4 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof v it takes 3.92 The Duvolle AR takes 3.6 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof V it takes 3.52 Basic Shotgun take 2.1 seconds to kill the LSP GS and with prof V it takes 2.1 seconds The CreoDron Shotgun takes 2.1 seconds to fell the LSP GS and prof v is 1.4 (though getting shield OR armor upgrades to level 2 is enough to make it take 2.1 seconds) The basic shotgun takes 2.8 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof 5 it takes 2.8 seconds The CreoDron take 2.1 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof V it takes 2.1 seconds. Now that weGÇÖve looked at both 2 assault suits and 2 sentinel suits, each as a new player and a vet using them letGÇÖs try analyzing the data. Resistance bonus plays a large roll in TTK, but even more so, picking your targets out by damage profile seems to be even more important. Proficiency 5 in a weapon (at 15%, which may change or remain the same) seems to only change the damage by a single bullet for the Assault Rifle for either tier. While the 10% increase in damage from Basic to Proto has a larger difference of about 4 bullets less to kill. On the other hand the proficiency 5 has almost no visible effect on the Shotgun at standard or proto level while more often than not the change in damage from the basic to prototype shotgun is not enough to matter. Wanna see what happens at the prototype level? Before then IGÇÖd like to state that all the builds I am using do not seem unreasonable to me. The high SP builds are what I currently run (A-1 Sentinel rather than G-1, but it converts, and I donGÇÖt use C-1 Sentinel as it does not exist) or ones I had tried when I was just starting out and branching into different roles to try them all out. So the dropsuits I present to you in this section are ones that either I currently use, or how I would play them if I did have them (by which I mean the sentinels). Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1445	Posted - 2014.03.14 03:43:00 - [4] - Quote Prototype is the endgame. For this section I will ignore the people that just dropped SP into the role at level 5 but are vets thatGÇÖve been playing long enough to accumulate the 22 million SP it takes to max out Dropsuit Upgrades, Proto Role suits, 1 heavy/light weapon, and 1 Sidearm. To make up for it, IGÇÖll present 2 types of suits: Utility/Specialist and full tank. Utility Assault ck.0 .http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/666 2complex shield extenders, 1 basic armor plate.422 shields, 243 armor EHP of 653; EHP against prof V:607 Full Tank Assault ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/664 4 complex shield extenders, 2 enhanced armor plates, and a basic plate. 552 shields and 485 armor. EHP of 1041, EHP against prof V: 984 Basic AR TTK is 1.76, 1.68, 2.8, and 2.64 Duvolle AR TTK is 1.6, 1.52, 2.56, and 2.4 Basic Shotgun TTK is 1.4,1.4, 2.1, and 2.1 CreoDron Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4 Utility Assault gk.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/668 2 complex plates. 150 shields, 559 armor EHP of 757, EHP against prof 5: 741 Full Tank Assault gk.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/669 2 basic shield extender, 1 complex shield extender, 4 complex armor plates. 271 shields 586 armor EHP of 897; EHP at prof V: 867 Basic AR TTK is 2.08, 2, 2.4, and 2.32 Duvolle AR TTK is 1.84, 1.84, 2.24 and 2.16 Basic Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4 CreoDron Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4 Regen Sentinel ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/670 1 complex shield extender, 728 shields 487 armor. EHP: 1415; EHP prof V: 1311 Full Tank Sentinel ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/671 4 compex shield extender, 1 complex armor plate. 946 shield, 636 armor EHP: 1843; EHP prof V: 1708 basic AR TTK: 3.84, 3.52, 4.96*, and 4.56 proto AR TTK: 3.44, 3.2, 4.48, and 4.16 * takes more than a full clip and does not include reload time basic shotgun TTK: 2.1, 2.1, 2.8, and 2.8 proto shotgun TTK: 2.1, 2.1, 2.8,and 2.8 The number of suits we go over really doesnGÇÖt matter. Each and almost every time shotgun proficiency does not change the way the weapon functions. We also start to note that the damage from basic shotgun to prototype shot also isnGÇÖt enough to affect the number of shots it takes to kill The shotgun could use some love, the decrease spread from basic to proto is significant and a high damage means a little more range, but perhaps the proto-type could have a slower falloff rate, but thatGÇÖs for another time. Right now I want to focus on 1 thing: TL;DR CCP please do not change the shotgunGÇÖs proficiency without changing the RoF between teirs. You are DIRECTLY nerfing this weapon. One that has many problem it has to overcome just to get that full damage off. That risk vs reward is missing on using different tiered shotguns and proficiency is basically a waste of SP. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1482	Posted - 2014.03.14 08:57:00 - [5] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I know your intention here Appia, but do you really think CCP gives a damn about what you just typed? Of course not. I know how changes happen. Regardless of data and logic it's rules of the Suburbs out here. Whoever complains the most and the loudest wins. Thank you tanks. Someone said, dev of CPM, that the reason they missed the huge AV nerf, because the people who had data to show why it was a bad idea just did exactly as I'm doing now. The crap needs to be spammed and whined about incessantly for CCP to notice. I don't even care if they try to improve the weapon to get it into a good place. Right now I'll settle for it just not getting nerfed. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1492	Posted - 2014.03.14 09:47:00 - [6] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: GREEN DEATH21 wrote: Ok I lied, I read your whole post. I see your point and I agree, the RoF proficiency is critical to it's effectiveness. Changing the proficiency from RoF to SD damage without changing the RoF on the different tiers will indeed be a direct nerf to the weapon, as the OP stated in the last part. I hope CCP will change the proficiency back to RoF instead of SD damage as your thread proves exactly why. Great job on the stats and I hope a DEV sees this and takes this under consideration with the rest of the DEVs. The RoF was Ok a flat damage boost would be ok as well (IMHO this would serve the SG better) but the nerfed damage boost will push the SG even more in the corner of uselessness. It has a stupid operation skill that makes the SG weaker with every level (oh how I regret to put my points in there) it will have a weaker proficiency skill than now. And the optimal range of a SG is very bad. Honestly you would better use a NK a charged NK can OHK most to any medium suits something the SG never really could I don't see how less dispersion makes it weaker. Could you please explain that to me. Having a more concentrated blast, at least to me, seems like it would mean more pellets scoring hits on a target than have a spray-and-pray mentality of trying to guarantee a hit but for lower damage. It also means that the blast can travel further and do more damage because of the smaller cone it fires in. Unless the shotgun blast is a magical orb that if any of it touches you, you take full damage- which it might be- less dispersion in indirectly more damage. How is that stupid? Regardless. I added the Breach Shotgun and the Allotek Breach shotgun, for lolz. Look at how the breach shotgun actually takes an equal number of shots, with lower RoF means high TTK. Or simply just takes too long to reload. Really. the Breach Shotgun is probably in the running against Plasma cannon and flaylock pistol for worst weapons in the game. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1506	Posted - 2014.03.14 16:11:00 - [7] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: I see the shotgun in the same light I see nova knives. If you're comparing them against other weapons in a head on, "fair" fight scenario, you're doing it wrong and are probably already dead. From my own experience running the Dren Shotgun and no skills into shotgun operation or proficiency, I don't mind having the slower RoF and can still land the three or four shots to kill heavies so long as I get within optimal range without them noticing. I see you have missed the point entirely. I am not comparing the damage out put of the two weapons, but the effect of using different tiers (STD, ADV, PRO) and investing Skill Points into Proficiency. There is virtually zero change between STD shotgun, STD shotgun with proficiency 5, PRO shotgun, and PRO shotgun with proficiency 5. That is what this is demonstrating. That the change to proficincy in the Shotgun, specifically, becomes a waste of SP. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1507	Posted - 2014.03.14 16:25:00 - [8] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: This whole thread might actually prove the idea further to CCP, as their priority this build is to increase TTK. It sucks that the shotgun prof wont meaningfully change engagements, but I still can't see CCP legitimately considering making it deliver damage faster as they try to lengthen engagement time. This is all of course, assuming that the shotgun Prof is changing at all and the dev blog wasn't a typo. The one area where I will say this helps though, Appia, is with grazing shots. With hit detection still wonky, and with shotgun spread the way it is, having each pellet peel off a little more shield makes the gun slightly more forgiving for off center shots or non optimal shots. Your analysis assumes full contact with 12 pellets in range. In the case of a bunny hopper where only 6 of my pellets land, or when the guy is 15m out and not 10m, doing more alpha damage per shot might flip the engagement. Italics: Yes, I pointed that out indeed. I really like the effect it will have on the 4 rifles, and pistols, and SMGs. Not so much the Specialist weapons. Bolded: I can't find the post but a dev confirmed it somewhere. Underlined: The difference in damage is not significant. 15% to just shields would, again, benefit a high RoF weapon. But the fact that the fastest you can fire is ever 0.7 seconds it just isn't significant to matter. And most suits' shield will be nullified by a single blast regardless. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday) AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1576	Posted - 2014.03.18 21:07:00 - [9] - Quote Ninja Troll wrote: So many numbers, my eyes and brain hurt. Checked the 1.8 SDE values and there have been no changes to the RoF of Shotguns. Didn't notice any changes to damage or anything else. And why would there be any changes? They never announced any changes and they probably won't do anything to the shotgun for a long time to come. The nerf to this weapon isn't going to change who uses it, because even when it had about a 33% hit rate before they improved hit detection with it, the many shotgun users stuck with it. But it is important to point out the unintentional problem CCP makes when they do their broad sweeping changes. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1588	Posted - 2014.03.19 00:34:00 - [10] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: you forgot to include hit detection, better dispersion on the AR, and more aim assist on moving targets with the AR, but other than that its ok. We've had our disagreements in the past, but this is pretty good Appia, +1. I still advocate for more spread so that the shot fills the reticle, but keeping proficiency is a good step as well. Im thinking this-5% range to the shotgun per level Op, 3% RoF per level Prof. Also, the range needs a base buff to at least 5-6 meters Like I said, I don't want to talk about balancing it, or its other myriad or problems, because CCP never said anything about changing it or balancing it. I just don't want a direct nerf when they didn't say they were reducing TTK for Shotguns. What should be the premier example of an Alpha weapon still falls short of the DPS weapons in Close Quarters Combat. It did not deserve this change. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

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