DUST Search - Sniping in 1.8

Appia Vibbia wrote:

Only problem I see in this thread is the OPs damage calculations. Shield body shot does 90%, Shield head shot does 175%, armor body shot does 110% and armor headshot does 214%

If you want to calculate raw damage you need to use 194.5 as they headshot multiplier. Though Effective Damage varies do to shield and armor values of different suits. So 1.7 Raw damage on a charge sniper rifle with prof 5 and 5 damage mods is 950
with max stats, minimum damage is 855 while ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM damage a prototype sniper rifle, with prof 5 and 5 damage mods can do is 1045 damage. so 1154 is the absolute max damage a thales can do in 1.7
Is this reasonable? To make 5 damage mods, proficiency 5, and an officer weapon.

So lets say I have a basic heavy. atm 480 shields, 480 armor. I add 1 basic shield extender, a basic armor plate and a basic armor repairer. base shields and armor increase to 504 because of armor and shield upgrades to level 1. shields become 527 because of basic shield extender and shield extension level 1. armor becomes 570. The basic heavy now has 1097 total HP.
To calculate EHP we do HP/modifier 527/1.75=301 while 570/2.14 = 266. So, our basic heavy suit with 1 basic shield and 1 basic armor plate has an EHP of 567 against Sniper Rifle Headshots.
Thale's = 355.3, proficiency is +15%, 5 damage mods is +31.34% or so, 355.3*1.15*1.3134= 536.65 damage.

Is... is there a problem here? That's not even 500,000 SP invested versus the absolute maximum damage the most dedicated sniper can possibly do with a weapon that you can't restock.

I think I'll just go make a whole EHP chart about this. The Sniper Rifle is not balanced. Poor hit-detection, teleporting infantry (from lag), useless from within 100m, and lacks the DPS or high-alpha damage to do anything but annoy players like mosquitoes or steal a blue-dot's kill. Not to mention the terrain errors and ****-poor rendering on surface installations and hills***.

*** that's where you see pub-snipers gravitate to, the places where they can glitch into the terrain to ignore damage from CQC, or blend into it so they can't be counter-sniped.

CRNWLLC wrote:

Consider the following: as it stands now, the best you'd hope for is Proficiency 5 (+15%) and three complex damage mods 26%. That puts you at about 41% possible increased damage at present. But with the new stats for complex damage mods (+5%, for a total of about 13% if you stack three), the max will be about 28%.

A proto commando suit (+15% to racial weapon damage) with Proficiency 5 on a relevant racial weapon (another +15%), with the ~13% granted from stacking 3 complex damage mods (the most it can stack) will receive a cumulative damage bonus of about 43%. That's about a 15% difference between the maximum potential damage output of commando suits vs all others! Considering that complex damage mods now only give a 5% bonus, that's flippin' HUGE! In other words, the difference between max potential damage output between commandos and every other suit is greater than stacking 4 complex damage mods after they get "rebalanced"!


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CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 96	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:19:00 - [1] - Quote While I sort of understand the rationale behind increased TTK, I am a little concerned about what it means for sniping (and, to a lesser extent, other alpha-focused roles, like shotgun scouts). As it stands, it was clearly a poor decision to recently skill into complex damage mods. Standard level are unchanged (huzzah! ), advanced get nerfed 20% (previously 5%, now 4%), but complex get docked 50 FRICKEN PERCENT (from 10% to 5%)!!!! At least we get dropsuit command skills refunded which is totally fair on its own, since they didn't add or change any equipment in 1.8... This is absurd. What else has been "rebalanced" this extremely? Certainly nothing in 1.7 or 1.8... community--please enlighten me, because I don't understand this. Maybe I'm missing something, but extending TTK seems to be primarily important/relevant to troops on the frontline, most of whom wield high-DPS, automatic weapons. The biggest damage nerf any of the automatic rifles got was 15.6%... hmm... Wonder if nerfing those weapons just a little more would be a more equitable way of dealing with the problem for all players? Nah. Let's kick damage mods in the taint, instead. I feel like this is going to make sniping much less viable. Here is some math using a charge sniper rifle as an example: Pre-1.8 Base damage = 321.9 x 1.09 (+9% from Proficiency 3) = 350.87 x 1.21 (approx. +21% from 3 complex damage mods) = 424.55 x 1.75 (headshot bonus) = 742.97 per head shot. Post-1.8 Base damage = 321.9 x 1.09 (+9% from Proficiency 3) = 350.87 x 1.11 (approx. +11% from 3 complex damage mods) = 389.47 x 1.75 (headshot bonus) = 681.56 per head shot. This turns out to be about an 8.3% difference in total damage output. I don't think this is too big a deal on its own, but I keep reading all sorts of things about dual-tanking becoming the norm, buffs to shield mods (couldn't find anything from the devs about this, but I've read it in numerous threads), etc. If these ideas carry any weight, I can foresee OHK sniping (aka, sniping) becoming a sweet memory. Maybe none of this will matter with the way damage types, racial suits, and resistances are rebalanced? I'm doubtful this is the case. Thoughts? Feelings? My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 96	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:37:00 - [2] - Quote Kaughst wrote: Caldari Commando? O wait..rail rifles..yea..sorry? Yes, this is true--skilling 5 levels into Caldari commando is one response to this situation. However, the suit has only one equipment slot and a large scan profile. The profile issue can be slightly mitigated through the use of a profile dampener (what else you'd do with the single low slot on this suit if using it to snipe is beyond me), but a single equipment slot is a real disadvantage for a sniper. Going proto is necessary in this situation, since STD and ADV variations only have 2 high slots. So, all in all, not a very great "solution". I think the idea that a player should have to skill into a particular suit to use a whole class of weapon optimally is ridiculous. This is probably intentional, since the commando suit is advertised "as a damage dealing monster in combat", but I still think this is ridiculous, since they're almost certainly not referring to alpha damage (I feel comfortable asserting this since there are really only four alpha-type weapons: SN, SG, MD, and FG (and possibly a charged ScR); in any case, none of these weapons is very effective in frontline fighting, for obvious reasons that have been addressed in many other threads). My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 96	Posted - 2014.03.12 18:32:00 - [3] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: CRNWLLC wrote: Thoughts? Feelings? Good. The useless role of a sniper is further diminished. Sorry, you asked. I was waiting for someone to say this, and I can't say I'm surprised it was you! My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 96	Posted - 2014.03.12 19:03:00 - [4] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: CRNWLLC wrote: buffs to shield mods Shield mods aren't getting buffed, although... Complex Shield Regulators need a buff from 25% to 30%. What's happening is damage mods (ENH and mostly COM as you point out) are getting a nerf. Since damage mods and shield extenders occupy high slots, the question is which to use. Armor tankers have nothing useful to put in the highs except damage mods, so that seems obvious. The question comes when consider HP values. Will I get more benefit out of doing 5% more damage to you, or gaining 77 shield HP, effectively meaning you do X% less damage to me? That's the school of thought there. I still think damage mods will be useful because the extenders are only helpful if you're getting shot. The obvious solution is to kill them before they shoot you. Hope I explained myself well. Make sense? Aren't shield regulators a type of shield module? To clarify: by "shield mods" I mean "shield modules"; by "damage mod" I mean "damage modifier", which is a specific type of module. My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 97	Posted - 2014.03.12 22:38:00 - [5] - Quote Noremac Nagaho wrote: Come on, there are so many pros to becoming a caldari commando sniper: 1. You look BADASS, master chief with black digi camo and red highlights (aurum ck.0 prediction) 2. You can do an extra 10% damage over other suit options (bringing you back up to pre-1.8 power) 3. Your sidearm is another light weapon (likely another sniper rifle or rail rifle) 4. You have high EHP but, unlike heavy snipers, you have room for a nanohive You make some good points, but: 1) I don't particularly care about cosmetics, though I agree. 2) I don't like the notion of swapping complex damage mods that significantly boost any weapon on any suit, in favor of severely handicapped complex damage mods that do the same + a set of heavy suits with racial weapon damage bonuses. To be sure, the commando suits are awesome and long overdue, but with the nerf to damage mods, they're massively OP compared to other suits. Consider the following: as it stands now, the best you'd hope for is Proficiency 5 (+15%) and three complex damage mods (cuz more than that is pretty useless; this adds about 21% to your damage output). That puts you at about 36% possible increased damage at present. But with the new stats for complex damage mods (+5%, for a total of about 12% if you stack three), the max will be about 27%. A proto commando suit (+15% to racial weapon damage) with Proficiency 5 on a relevant racial weapon (another +15%), with the ~12% granted from stacking 3 complex damage mods will receive a damage bonus of about 42%. That's about a 15% difference between the maximum potential damage output of commando suits vs all others! Considering that complex damage mods now only give a 5% bonus, that's flippin' HUGE! In other words, the difference between max potential damage output is greater than stacking 4 complex damage mods after they get "rebalanced"! 3) This is cool when you're up in the action, moving around in the fray, but as a sniper, I prefer to stay well back, skimming the perimeter, using my sidearm only as necessary. Prefer not to have to brawl with reds when my strategy is to hit them from afar. 4) True, but I'd also like an uplink and maybe another nanohive. Also, it's not too hard to get an Amarr logi suit to almost 1000 EHP, (which is enough to tank a headshot from a Thale's sniper with Proficiency 5 and GTFO) and it has three equipment slots. Just sayin'. When has another module/weapon/whatever had its proto-level variant "rebalanced" into its advanced-level variant? I am asking this honestly--I've only been playing a little less than a year (well, I've had this toon that long, only really been playing about 6 months). My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 97	Posted - 2014.03.12 22:44:00 - [6] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: People don't understand how hard it is to be a sniper... you have to have the hardest hitting sniper rifle in the game, three damage mods, and a few levels in sniper rifle proficiency just to one-hit a 100% free suit. Seriously, how often do you get killed by a standard or militia sniper rifle? almost never. Pretty much only when I'm running a scout suit, and that's how it should be! My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 99	Posted - 2014.03.13 16:09:00 - [7] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Only problem I see in this thread is the OPs damage calculations. Shield body shot does 90%, Shield head shot does 175%, armor body shot does 110% and armor headshot does 214% If you want to calculate raw damage you need to use 194.5 as they headshot multiplier. Though Effective Damage varies do to shield and armor values of different suits. So 1.7 Raw damage on a charge sniper rifle with prof 5 and 5 damage mods is 950 with max stats, minimum damage is 855 while ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM damage a prototype sniper rifle, with prof 5 and 5 damage mods can do is 1045 damage. so 1154 is the absolute max damage a thales can do in 1.7 Is this reasonable? To make 5 damage mods, proficiency 5, and an officer weapon. So lets say I have a basic heavy. atm 480 shields, 480 armor. I add 1 basic shield extender, a basic armor plate and a basic armor repairer. base shields and armor increase to 504 because of armor and shield upgrades to level 1. shields become 527 because of basic shield extender and shield extension level 1. armor becomes 570. The basic heavy now has 1097 total HP. To calculate EHP we do HP/modifier 527/1.75=301 while 570/2.14 = 266. So, our basic heavy suit with 1 basic shield and 1 basic armor plate has an EHP of 567 against Sniper Rifle Headshots. Thale's = 355.3, proficiency is +15%, 5 damage mods is +31.34% or so, 355.31.151.3134= 536.65 damage. Is... is there a problem here? That's not even 500,000 SP invested versus the absolute maximum damage the most dedicated sniper can possibly do with a weapon that you can't restock. I think I'll just go make a whole EHP chart about this. The Sniper Rifle is not balanced. Poor hit-detection, teleporting infantry (from lag), useless from within 100m, and lacks the DPS or high-alpha damage to do anything but annoy players like mosquitoes or steal a blue-dot's kill. Not to mention the terrain errors and **-poor rendering on surface installations and hills. that's where you see pub-snipers gravitate to, the places where they can glitch into the terrain to ignore damage from CQC, or blend into it so they can't be counter-sniped. Thanks for clarifying/cleaning up the calculations, Apple--the situation is more grim than I thought when applying the shield/armor bonuses! I found a stacking penalty calculator online and the reduction per addition module wasn't nearly as bad as I imagined. Either way, though, the situation is dubious. In terms of raw output, before taking the target's defensive bonuses into account, I calculated the following. Does it look right to you? I edited it slightly from an earlier post, with the new numbers in mind. I chose to use 3 complex damage mods as the "max" since there are only three suits, all prototype, with more than 3 high slots (namely, the Caldari & Minmatar logi suits and the Caldari assault, with 5/4/4 respectively). CRNWLLC wrote:** Consider the following: as it stands now, the best you'd hope for is Proficiency 5 (+15%) and three complex damage mods 26%. That puts you at about 41% possible increased damage at present. But with the new stats for complex damage mods (+5%, for a total of about 13% if you stack three), the max will be about 28%. A proto commando suit (+15% to racial weapon damage) with Proficiency 5 on a relevant racial weapon (another +15%), with the ~13% granted from stacking 3 complex damage mods (the most it can stack) will receive a cumulative damage bonus of about 43%. That's about a 15% difference between the maximum potential damage output of commando suits vs all others! Considering that complex damage mods now only give a 5% bonus, that's flippin' HUGE! In other words, the difference between max potential damage output between commandos and every other suit is greater than stacking 4 complex damage mods after they get "rebalanced"! Just to add to the controversy, I say that sniping is fun, especially hitting moving targets in the head from 400m away. Sniping is what it is, and what is it is is a long-range role. Cowardly? Unfair? Moral judgements are irrelevant--this is a game and it's an enjoyable and strategically useful playstyle. Bravery and courage IRL are only possible when one is scared, has a reason to suspect things will end badly. Unfortunately this is not the case for a video game, nor the numerous frontline vets that engage in the oft-bemoaned "protostomping". My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 101	Posted - 2014.03.13 21:53:00 - [8] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CRNWLLC wrote: CRNWLLC wrote: Consider the following: as it stands now, the best you'd hope for is Proficiency 5 (+15%) and three complex damage mods 26%. That puts you at about 41% possible increased damage** at present. But with the new stats for complex damage mods (+5%, for a total of about 13% if you stack three), the max will be about 28%. A proto commando suit (+15% to racial weapon damage) with Proficiency 5 on a relevant racial weapon (another +15%), *** with the ~13% granted from stacking 3 complex damage mods (the most it can stack) will receive a cumulative damage bonus of about 43%**. That's about a 15% difference between the maximum potential damage output of commando suits vs all others! Considering that complex damage mods now only give a 5% bonus, that's flippin' HUGE! In other words, the difference between max potential damage output between commandos and every other suit is greater than stacking 4 complex damage mods after they get "rebalanced"! Just to add to the controversy, I say that sniping is fun, especially hitting moving targets in the head from 400m away. Sniping is what it is, and what is it is is a long-range role. Cowardly? Unfair? Moral judgements are irrelevant--this is a game and it's an enjoyable and strategically useful playstyle. Bravery and courage IRL are only possible when one is scared, has a reason to suspect things will end badly. Unfortunately this is not the case for a video game, nor the numerous frontline vets that engage in the oft-bemoaned "protostomping". It's actually 44.9%. You don't add percentages but apply them 1 after the other. so 11.151.26=1.449. * to get an approximation you can half proficiency's values because it now only applies to shields or armor ** 39.7% is a better approximation/average. Or you can just say it has a range of 29.95%-49.44%. A difference of 16.95%-14.54% depending on armor to shield ratios. Thanks, Appia! Appreciate all the help with clarifying calculations. Any way you slice it, though, those Commando suits have massively OP damage outputs compared to all other suits. PS: Please excuse my initial misreading of your name as "Apple"! My other dropsuit is a Python.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 101	Posted - 2014.03.14 15:57:00 - [9] - Quote Tyjus Vacca wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: I miss the sighs of inevitability or the curses of frustration when people saw my name because they knew I was sniping, not just "oh great a pubstomper from [current corp]" regardless of the fact I use basic suits in pubs. I know what you mean I miss the counter sniping attempts or the shotgun scouts coming to kill me, I miss the ability to take out adv or proto suits with headshots, I miss quick scoping my way to the top of the leader board but the problem is not that dmg mods are worse its the sniper rifles themselves I shouldn't need 3 dmg mods and a proto sniper to be effective in pc ............... the biggest fixes snipers need is a hit detection fix and an increase to the headshot multiplier its 195% (175.5% shields, 214.5% armor) should be like 275% imo I completely agree with you re: SRs that actually get the job done, but at least it is possible to approach a viable, consistent OHK build with the current complex damage mod bonus, and there were a number of options for doing this. That's definitely not the case after 1.8. My other dropsuit is a Python.