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Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
586
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Posted - 2014.03.12 13:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:I'm really wondering why the hell I pull out a half mil tank, when I could easily kill every tank on the map with a Sica with stacked damage mods.
Me too. Instead of whining about it, call in double damage mod Sicas, play with them for a while, then report back on your experience.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
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Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
586
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 13:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Even if I ran two hardeners at once it'd only be 10% more resistance so at the moment damage mods on vehicles are pretty much ass. I've been saying it from the start and I'll keep saying it.
What exactly is it you're saying? Even running two hardeners, you don't get much more resists, so damage mods suck. I'm not following that correctly, I think.
If your post is correct, and you're talking about a second (presumably shield, since you mentioned Gunnlogis) hardener only giving you 10% more resists, you're wrong.
The first shield hardener takes your resists to 60%. The second is 60% from the first hardener plus 60% of the remainder, which is 24%. That makes the second hardener give you a resist of 84%.
Accounting for stacking penalties (if the values are identical to EVE), the second hardener actually gives you a resist of 52.2%, making your final resists with two hardeners come out to 81%, rounded up.
If you activate a damage mod and I activate a shield or armor hardener, the net effect will always be you doing less damage to me. The only issue is that if you're activating a damage mod, you're generally shooting first, i.e. before I can activate my hardener.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
588
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 14:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:I hate to say it, but for SP invested tankers, a MLT tank is pretty much the way to go!
I totally disagree. The fit I'm working towards for tanks is a Gunnlogi with PRO main and secondary rail turrets, and two good friends to man those two turrets. Some things I consider when planning out the tank are
- tiered hardeners offer the same resist bonuses and duration, but better tiers have faster cool down times
- tiered extenders and boosters offer greater bonuses (more HP) at higher tiers, the booster has faster cool down at higher tiers.
With that in mind, a few tanking options I was looking at include...
3x complex hardeners / These can be perma run with good skills or activated all at once for an amazing tank. (Activating the third only gives 34.2% resists instead of 60%, so I would probably hold off on the third unless I was absolutely getting pounded.) Has room for an ammo expansion.
2x complex hardeners + 1x complex booster / Two hardeners is my ideal balance after stacking penalties are factored in. The higher tier booster gives more shield HP with a faster cool down, and with the resists from the hardeners the booster gives much more eHP than it would normally. This fit needs to downgrade a secondary PRO rail to an ADV to make it fit.
2x Complex hardeners + 1x complex extender / The extender would give more HP when my hardeners aren't up (i.e. when I get shot before I can activate my hardeners) and comes with the added bonus of not needing to worry about managing an active module in a fire fight or worrying about the shield boost bug. With the hardeners active, I get less eHP than with the shield booster, but it has the benefit of always being there. Has room for an ammo expansion.
All three need at least a complex CPU mod, the booster needs a PG mod also.
With the additional damage from the PRO turrets over MLT turrets, having two competent gunners on voice to coordinate, and the hardener's resists outpacing the damage mod's damage bonus, I'm confident this is a good, survivable, dangerous fit.
On an unrelated note, I find it difficult to lead a shot on a dropship farther than about 300m. The flavor text on the rail turret mentions a projectile moving at something like 7km/s, iirc (maybe that's the Forge Gun?) It sure doesn't feel that fast.
EDIT: I'm toying around with missiles, too. Also will be using LP tanks and PRO turrets because camo. Focusing on a shield/rail tank focuses my SP, though. I don't need any other turret skills, no armor skills, no vehicle command skills (because LP tank) etc.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
603
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Posted - 2014.03.12 20:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Goodposting
Awesome! I was hoping you'd critique the fits instead of blasting me for not knowing what I'm talking about, because I don't. I have very minimal vehicle skills currently and have other priorities. I do want to become proficient with tanks especially in the near future, though.
The fits I made up were made using Harpyja's Vehicle Fitting Tool with max skills. I put a PRO rail main turret on all of them and built around that. I'm straight up theorycrafting.
2x Hardener / 1x Booster
Right now I run a Basic State Gunnlogi fit with 2x Hardener and 1x Booster. I use MLT mods where I fitting allows to save a little ISK. The main turret is the prefit AUR STD rail turret, and I upgraded the two secondaries to LP ADV rails.
When the booster works, it's amazing. Like we mentioned though, there does seem to be a bug where when I activate it quickly after hardener, the hardener goes to cool down and the booster doesn't activate. This scenario usually plays out when I get shot first. I usually have about 1/3 shield left, so I activate the hardener and the booster immediately after. That way (if it works) the freshly boosted shield HP is already hardened.
Also, you mention any damage being able to stop the boost process. I haven't noticed that, but it feels to be the case. I'll pay better attention in the future. If so, it should definitely not be the case. Shield HP gained from a booster should be instantaneous. Whether that HP is gained from one large pulse, or several smaller pulses like it used to be, each pulse should be instant.
Also, the shield booster not activating correctly is known to CCP and a 'fix is in the works.'
So my reasoning with skilling into tanks is to have the increased damage from better turrets, the shorter cool down from better mods, and better fitting to fit those better mods.
So that's what I use now. Having competent gunners I've found greatly increasing my survivability, not just cause they can shoot things, but they can tell me what they see. You're right though, there's no reason to run around with them all the time. When I don't have gunners I usually default to my glass cannon Sica.
3x Hardener
Here's my thoughts with the other fits. The triple hardeners are purely because I would be able to perma-run them, which I think is cool in and of itself. But you're right in that having 3 active at once isn't so great due to stacking penalties and the way resist work. Here's the resists for each hardener, as per Harpyja's fitting tool.
1st Active Hardener - 60%
2nd Active Hardener - 81%
3rd Active Hardener - 87%
Like I said, it would be a novelty fit and I probably wouldn't run it much past first being able to.
2x Hardeners / 1x Extender:
The extender fit is what I'm most looking forward to for the reasons you listed, unless Shield Boosters get fixed and reworked so that the pulse can't be interrupted, then it would be a tie. Even then, not having to manage an active mod is appealing. When you get a chance to play with this one, let me know how it is. I need fitting mods to make it work (even at all 5s) but if you take off the turrets you could probably fit some useful armor mods in the lows. Maybe a repper for when you can't make it to a supply depot because they're on the damn roof or fenced in.
The ammo expansions are definitely because I didn't want that slot to go empty.
One thing I thought about are triple complex extenders. One of the downfalls I saw with this is even thoug hyo ucan get over 6,000 Shield HP, you've got no resistances, so all the damage hitting you is coming through. Also, the fact that you have a large pool of shield HP doesn't change the fact that your HP/s would sit at 168. It would take longer to get to full shields with triple extenders, and you'd want to be at full shield before going into an engagement without hardeners.
I looked at 1 hardener and 2 extenders also. 2 hardeners and 1 extender give better eHP values though, so I thought it would be better all around. I might revisit that when I have the skills to play with it in game.
Thanks for the response. Look forward to how that extender fit works out.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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