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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
   |
Posted - 2014.03.11 15:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:ask yourself this, if it was so easy to lag switch dust, and so benificial.
then why would people of had to rely on the "lag bomb" equipment glitch to achieve the same effect? and why is it that the problems have largly vanished now that particular lag inducing problem is fixed?
the current DDOS attacks are the result of people attempting to build a lag switch that works, and their attempts have so far been unsuccessful. meaning anyone whos every adamanly stated that someone else has lag switched this game is not only wrong, but has no idea what a lag switch is and how it works. put a PC in front of your ps3, and is not so hard, routers where once software based. 500-700 miliseconds is easy. oh yah its REALLY easy to lag YOURSELF out 500-700miliseconds behind everyone else giving you a massive disadvantage. doing it the other way around is whats not possable ATM this is illustrated by the need to use the equipment lagbomd and the current DDOS issues we are having as people now dont have said lag bomb and are searching for wasy to much up the network in their favor to compensate. the DDOS dust is currently under is the result of people trying to find a way to lag switch, meaning they currently do NOT have a way to lag switch :P There's no indication that the DDoS was anything but an act of heckling.
Besides that, yeah. I don't see what lag switching in a dedicated server architecture that doesn't trust the client could possibly accomplish, other than detriment your own gameplay.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 15:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:ask yourself this, if it was so easy to lag switch dust, and so benificial.
then why would people of had to rely on the "lag bomb" equipment glitch to achieve the same effect? and why is it that the problems have largly vanished now that particular lag inducing problem is fixed?
the current DDOS attacks are the result of people attempting to build a lag switch that works, and their attempts have so far been unsuccessful. meaning anyone whos every adamanly stated that someone else has lag switched this game is not only wrong, but has no idea what a lag switch is and how it works. put a PC in front of your ps3, and is not so hard, routers where once software based. 500-700 miliseconds is easy. oh yah its REALLY easy to lag YOURSELF out 500-700miliseconds behind everyone else giving you a massive disadvantage. doing it the other way around is whats not possable ATM this is illustrated by the need to use the equipment lagbomd and the current DDOS issues we are having as people now dont have said lag bomb and are searching for wasy to much up the network in their favor to compensate. the DDOS dust is currently under is the result of people trying to find a way to lag switch, meaning they currently do NOT have a way to lag switch :P Not on the recieving side but on the transmit side-I would see you real time you would see me 500 ms in the past-just like ****** DSL connections just man made-this is simple stuff. The server doesn't rely on your data to advance the gamestate. When your outbound data is late by 700ms then the server will just assume no action was taken during that period and you're effectively standing still in the simulation.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 15:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Everything Dies wrote:General John Ripper wrote:ONE-I-BANDIT wrote:General John Ripper wrote:NAV HV is a lag switcher. He confessed to it. Its because hes Asian huh lol  asian/lagswitcher same thing.... Just try playing nyain san. You will see what I mean. Whew...I was afraid we were going to make it past the first page without the name Nyain San being mentioned. Admit it, people--that was first thing you thought of when reading the thread title! He's not the only one, watch for people who when you shoot disappear and then shoot you from a position 5 or 6 meters away and with ADS precision-you'll notice it alot. Nyan San is not a person but an Asian corp. Geographic differences alone mean that both sides will experience increased rubberbanding when one of them is connecting through US/EU.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 16:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:I am referring not to hardware switches but taking a PC with 2 nics connecting the PS3 to the pc and then the pc to the internet. In between the two nics you would create a software router or even use "other" security tools to slow or even stop the transmit side of the equation. The method of interruption/delay doesn't matter. When the server doesn't get your input within an unknown but certainly very short threshold (lag compensation) then it will count that as you not doing anything and that's the end of it.
You might very well surpress your outbound data transmission while still reacting to received data on your client, but when your reaction reaches the server half a second late then the enemy shots at your last known position within that half a second will count as hits and you're dead.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 16:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:I am referring not to hardware switches but taking a PC with 2 nics connecting the PS3 to the pc and then the pc to the internet. In between the two nics you would create a software router or even use "other" security tools to slow or even stop the transmit side of the equation. The method of interruption/delay doesn't matter. When the server doesn't get your input within an unknown but certainly very short threshold (lag compensation) then it will count that as you not doing anything and that's the end of it. You might very well surpress your outbound data transmission while still reacting to received data on your client, but when your reaction reaches the server half a second late then the enemy shots at your last known position within that half a second will count as hits and you're dead. what people usually concider signs of a lag switching oponent in dust, are actually caused by their own connection failing. Exactly, or the server itself struggling of course. That's what my, not entirely accurate, Nyan San statement was supposed to suggest.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 16:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:I am referring not to hardware switches but taking a PC with 2 nics connecting the PS3 to the pc and then the pc to the internet. In between the two nics you would create a software router or even use "other" security tools to slow or even stop the transmit side of the equation.
Yes, of course there are physical switchers, lag bombers and people with **** internet as well as joing cross region-it's a cesspool of bad routing.
And as a note: the regional servers are just that regional. It still won't matter if the server, not the client, is the one handling the hit detection. So you can lag your client, but the server will still see you as just not doing anything or going anywhere even though you are running around shooting people once you enable the lag switch and resync. Go rent a BF3 server and after kicking all of the long trip players tell me that the games don't get better. Or unloading a whole clip in someones back and they turn and kill you thats lag, latency or what ever you want to call it, and it is directly associated with UDP. Gosh. No one's denying that lag happens and affects players. This is about the plausability of lag switching (by whatever means) to the benefit of the "switcher" in Dust.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1205
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 17:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Serimos Haeraven wrote:I've had the same exact issue when I'm in my Assault DS. Occasionally, I'll come across tanks that right once i start landing the first few shots, all of a sudden each missile i shoot after that has a 10 second delay, and i can't hit them at all anymore.
And then when i go away my missiles go back to normal rate of fire. Total switching. YUP! UDP circa 1982, but that is the only internet protocol available for FPS and the net code is too forgiving, and as I stated earlier it is admirable of CCP to try to give everyone a chance to play, but there is an inherent performance hit when all UDP is treated equally. It allows people that want to abuse the chance to do just that. I love DUST I have spent, unashamedly at least $450.00 US since closed beta for my son and I, and I will continue to support CCP. Must be something in the Lore to justify closing region crossing down, until a game type is designed that can reunite the regions-as some wise man said "God hates Lag" that means GOD loves FPS Well peace out! Time to go get a root canal--ummmm! There's no reason to believe any kind of abuse took place in this anectote. Can you explain how a player could be able to generate the described behavior without direct control of the server?
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1216
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 20:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:except its not a lag switch, its poor internet combined with long distance connectivity and badly written net code.
nobody is using a lag switch
you still seem to thing a lag switch is involved, it isnt, nobody is at fault except ISPs and bad code.
its my personal pet theory that the reason dust has been under DDOS this last week without anyone taking credit is because some person or group is probing the network trying to find a weakness they can build a lag switch to exploit, but as of now all a lag switch does is nearly instantly disconnects the user.
aka it would disconnect an individual, not a whole squad. Is it confirmed that the current lag is due to another DDoS attack? There's a plethora of other possible reasons for this.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1216
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 21:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:
I'd still really like to know how it would conceivably work even if they did find a weakness. I'm not being sarcastic as I am actually curious as to any theories out there.
The only two options I have come up with are access the other player's system/home network and cause them to actually lag out or gain access to the server and make it think they are lagging out. Both of which would have to be done every single time you wanted to do it. And both of which are international crimes.
I don't think DUST is that crucial. They're just trying to find a weak network somewhere so they can exploit it to get where they really want to go.
If they did in fact find a weakness, that could allow them to seize control over parts of the battleserver. Affecting infividual game instances wouldn't be impossible in that case but, as you pointed out, no sane blackhat would waste his time and commit a serious crime just to gain a competitive edge in some fringe f2p fps.
They're probably looking for customer data and/or plain old hacker notoriety (they're petty like that).
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1229
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 20:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Serimos Haeraven wrote:I've had the same exact issue when I'm in my Assault DS. Occasionally, I'll come across tanks that right once i start landing the first few shots, all of a sudden each missile i shoot after that has a 10 second delay, and i can't hit them at all anymore.
And then when i go away my missiles go back to normal rate of fire. Total switching. YUP! UDP circa 1982, but that is the only internet protocol available for FPS and the net code is too forgiving, and as I stated earlier it is admirable of CCP to try to give everyone a chance to play, but there is an inherent performance hit when all UDP is treated equally. It allows people that want to abuse the chance to do just that. I love DUST I have spent, unashamedly at least $450.00 US since closed beta for my son and I, and I will continue to support CCP. Must be something in the Lore to justify closing region crossing down, until a game type is designed that can reunite the regions-as some wise man said "God hates Lag" that means GOD loves FPS Well peace out! Time to go get a root canal--ummmm! There's no reason to believe any kind of abuse took place in this anectote. Can you explain how a player could be able to generate the described behavior without direct control of the server? crossing regions with a squad would be the seed, usingthe American server an asian team only needs a couple of Europeans and add a few south Americans and you could easily get 400plus latency, I think CCP/DUST is WYSIWYG and that favors high latency players, you can see it in game and you have proof of it on the score board. CCP collects this data all day long and does nothing to fix the biggest, most unfair inbalance in this game. been shot after reaching cover?, point blank range and deal little or no damage? players jumping around corners and insta killing you? bending bullets? these are all examples of high latency players being favored by the server. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you briefly elaborate on what you mean by wysiwyg in this context (i know what the acronym means, just not in this context)?
Now with extra edit included : Those are perfect examples for latency involvement. But without knowing how it looked on the other side you can't know who is favored and to what extend. He is probably experiencing the same thing unless you are connecting to battleserver that's closer to him, which would be hardly an exploit comparable to lag switching i might add.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1229
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 20:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Enji Elric wrote:If you girls are done arguing I'd like to see this Youtube proof that everyone seems to be able to find except me that people are actually lag switching on this game considering this a server based game and that server handles a hell of a lot
I haven't found any either and i'm not going to bother looking further before i'm convinced it's even plausible.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1231
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 21:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you briefly elaborate on what you mean by wysiwyg in this context (i know what the acronym means, just not in this context)?
the server records your movement, so if a player with high latency pulls the trigger the server can rewind time and tries to make sence of what that player attempted to hit. if you are the other guy it looks like they have bad aim and are shooting behind you as you run past. the reality is that they are shooting at where they see you, so the term wysiwyg. the server rewinds you and account for latency and bam your dead. i am not privy to all the schemes CCP is or could be using to try to make this global shooter to work, but they can't speed up an electron and distance is not FPS friendly. It reasonable to assume some form of lag compensation is happening. Pretty much standard in FPS these days.
I doubt however that it's willing to rewind upwards of 100ms or so due to entropy alone. You can only shift time around so much before it causes constant and massive desync for everyone involved. Funny things like dying from a hitscan bullet who's shooter died half a second ago would be possible. I've had this happen in crappier games, not in dust.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1231
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 21:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Hecarim Van Hohen wrote:Vman Q wrote:Hecarim Van Hohen wrote:Lag switching in Dust is like lag switching in EVE online l'op what happens when you lag switch in EVE? User suffers from lag while everyone else carries on with their life's like nothing happened Actually EVE is a true TCP/IP game, and DUST utilizes UDP over TCP/IP so there is a big difference in how time stamps are handled in FPS. I do not think that a simple orange/white orange switch is being used-I think they are using PC's with dual NICs and running a UDP flood on the transmit side. It would look like a DDOS attack- a simple syn flood. CCP your net code is too permissive in allowing people with bad ISP connections and your desire to have a global community-both are laudable and commendable, but you need to protect your baby (DUST514) I love your game, I believe you are on the right track and I am supporting you financially-please feel free to look at my families DUST purchases. With this support in mind I must ask you to protect my investment in you and DUST 514. You need to segment your regions first and then tighten up your net code. I know some of the "amazing" players will have to fix their internet situation and not be so "amazing" and the true hack/laggers will get filtered as well. I know this is a lot of work and expensive and we can manage for now, but you NEED to get it done, ready and tested before your PS4 migration. The free riders are not helping the situation and they certainly are not here to support your baby as it grows up! They are trying to suffocate it in the crib. My FPS friends, and I am 50yrs old so I have a lot, that have tried DUST will not play it because of the laggers, and when you combine the Proto/WASD stuff they wonder about your insight and ability to get this right. My FPS experience started on "broken ring" IPX networks. ;-) From my experience working at ubisoft on networked games this guy has nailed it right there ! Less ad verecundiam, more explanation on how this can be actively abused in a server side archiceture please.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1231
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 21:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:GLOBAL RAGE wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you briefly elaborate on what you mean by wysiwyg in this context (i know what the acronym means, just not in this context)?
the server records your movement, so if a player with high latency pulls the trigger the server can rewind time and tries to make sence of what that player attempted to hit. if you are the other guy it looks like they have bad aim and are shooting behind you as you run past. the reality is that they are shooting at where they see you, so the term wysiwyg. the server rewinds you and account for latency and bam your dead. i am not privy to all the schemes CCP is or could be using to try to make this global shooter to work, but they can't speed up an electron and distance is not FPS friendly. It reasonable to assume some form of lag compensation is happening. Pretty much standard in FPS these days. I doubt however that it's willing to rewind upwards of 100ms or so due to entropy alone. You can only shift time around so much before it causes constant and massive desync for everyone involved. Funny things like dying from a hitscan bullet who's shooter died half a second ago would be possible. I've had this happen in crappier games, not in dust. well during some of the warping events i got rewound more than 50 meters and as a heavy that involves a sundial.. and to make clear the warping is not what i was alluding to but a point of ironic humor. I've touched on why that is happening earlier. When your transmit gets delayed too much the server assume you haven't given any input.
So while you seemingly kept moving on the client during the lag spike, on the server you where just stopping as soon as the connectioon broke. Once you get resynced it puts you back to where you actually (from the perspective of the server) are. This is a real issue and gets worse when you play on overseas battleservers but other players can not actively provoke this behavior other than by somehow forcing you into their region.
I'm focusing on methods that can be described as at least similar to what a lag switch can achieve, namely an active intervention of another player that delays you data on demand.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1235
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 22:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:
If you capture the right thing off net card one going to net card two (ps3) decrypt packets find structure of delta optimized udp data, you can actually create or alter outgoing packets superseeding what the ps3 can send back, this could be controlled by software. Of course it helps alot to know how your own traffic is generated and optimized. So its highly unlikely to happen unless an insider does it, or somebody familiar with the network code of unreal engine 3 if they use that or any network engine. but you know, the blueray code was deemed unbreakable. The ps3 was broke up also, who knows what an intelligent felow with lots of time on their hands can achieve for personal fun. In the end software is always breakable, spoofable and inherently as secure as the people made it to be. Would you want to know more, try to get your hands on raknet lib, all these things are implemented. What is actually hard is to make sense of the information going from the server to the client because its optimized ajd make very little sense structure wise, but there is only that much same info going on while shooting and moving, two things that can be nailed down. All these info are pretty much common knowledge to game developpers.
I also second the comment on priority of packets here, its abnormal we get leveled down in ping so eastern players may play with the bigger player base, although the idea of cloud network is commendable...
What can this possibly achieve when the client has no authority over the game state? If your input is in any way conflicting with what the server allows or predicts then you just get yourself de- and then re-syncronised and that's it.
What am I missing here?
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1236
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:
If you capture the right thing off net card one going to net card two (ps3) decrypt packets find structure of delta optimized udp data, you can actually create or alter outgoing packets superseeding what the ps3 can send back, this could be controlled by software. Of course it helps alot to know how your own traffic is generated and optimized. So its highly unlikely to happen unless an insider does it, or somebody familiar with the network code of unreal engine 3 if they use that or any network engine. but you know, the blueray code was deemed unbreakable. The ps3 was broke up also, who knows what an intelligent felow with lots of time on their hands can achieve for personal fun. In the end software is always breakable, spoofable and inherently as secure as the people made it to be. Would you want to know more, try to get your hands on raknet lib, all these things are implemented. What is actually hard is to make sense of the information going from the server to the client because its optimized ajd make very little sense structure wise, but there is only that much same info going on while shooting and moving, two things that can be nailed down. All these info are pretty much common knowledge to game developpers.
I also second the comment on priority of packets here, its abnormal we get leveled down in ping so eastern players may play with the bigger player base, although the idea of cloud network is commendable...
What can this possibly achieve when the client has no authority over the game state? If your input is in any way conflicting with what the server allows or predicts then you just get yourself de- and then re-syncronised and that's it. What am I missing here? You are right if extra layers of protections are added server wise its futile. In reality very few server does that, you know cause the work involved doesnt warrant the benefit of doing it. In the ends its just a video game. I would be surprised the server actually record a series of frame and check if what is coming from its own client is secured, encryption of packets is the normal good to go basic protection against packet opening and peeping. Client side prediction is more popular on the other hand cause a client is not authoritative and will be overrided automaticaly by server packets. I think you are making this a bit more comlicated than it needs to be. All the client is able to send is user input, namely button presses, z-coord. of L2/R2 and x/y-coord. of L/R. The server, at all times, knows and dictates movement speed, turn rate, and any other relevant metric of all entities.
When the server receives any valid input (buttons that actually exist/ stick coord. that are possible) it will just incorporate it into the simulation on its own terms and rules. None of this data is actually to able malicously influence the serverside simulation because there's no room for it to do so.
The worst I could imagine would be injection/OCR based aimbots that modify controller input to lock on the target. The former is usually trivial to detect/prevent once noticed and the latter...well... has anyone done this before?
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1236
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Stop saying "lag switch" because a "lag switch" is already a thing and it's not this. At least not what intelligent people think is going on. Somebody come up with a new term because it's actually getting kind of annoying.
Bunch of people wrote:
Something about tachyon emitters.
Ok, just so I'm clear about 'packets' and inferstructire jiggers and some of the other made up words you guys are throwing around: Actually I don't understand any of it. I mean I understand what the words mean but I'm not seeing the big picture. So can anyone break it down for me? I've been in IT for years so go ahead and use big words but I still can't understand how exactly the cheater in one location is affecting what everyone else sees on their television or monitor without having access to either the server or the other players networks? Because, correct me if I'm wrong here, isn't most of information for gameplay coming from the server? Such as when we used to get that desync where everyone else would keep moving in one direction but you were free to move around? If you shot your gun the animation would play but the ammo count would remain the same and you never had to reload. So it seems to me without input from the server you weren't actually shooting anything but the client was just going through the animation since that's stored locally and the actual shot in generated on the server. So can please somebody tell just how in the hell they think this is all being accomplished? Correct. The client just goes ahead with the animation to provide immediate feedback but it's not able to update even the ammo count on its own until the server confirms a shot has actually been fired.
Looks like classic "don't trust the client" to me.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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