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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
651
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Posted - 2014.03.10 12:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
we could focus on the tier system, but create an area for each tier to compete, on top of the current FFA that we have with pubs.
Or something along those lines.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
653
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Posted - 2014.03.10 12:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Tiericide. There can be no balance with suit tiers.
I disagree.
While Tieracide is a possible solution, it's not the ONLY one. I can't say for sure, but it doesn't seem like tiers are going away anytime soon. As CCP is releasing reworks of weapons and suits, not to mention the tank changes, using the current tier system.
Rather than work against the current system, we could go with the flow. Dividing battles into ranked leagues (tournament style gameplay), would allow for fair competition among the various tiers.
No you are right, there can be no balance with the current system, but only because our current system does not allow for it.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
653
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Posted - 2014.03.10 12:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yup, I've suggested that very thing! It makes sense when gear is divided into tiers, to additionally tier the matchmaking.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
655
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 14:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Tiericide. There can be no balance with suit tiers. I disagree. While Tieracide is a possible solution, it's not the ONLY one. I can't say for sure, but it doesn't seem like tiers are going away anytime soon. As CCP is releasing reworks of weapons and suits, not to mention the tank changes, using the current tier system. Rather than work against the current system, we could go with the flow. Dividing battles into ranked leagues (tournament style gameplay), would allow for fair competition among the various tiers. No you are right, there can be no balance with the current system, but only because our current system does not allow for it. That defeats the original intention of tiers though. No matter what you use, everyone you play with uses the same. It really doesn't make any difference within the leagues as long as you're half competent. The mix of more and less effective fits, which will persist after tiericide but through specialization and not straight power, is the main reason why taking greater risks (cost) can yield higher rewards (performance). The problem is how gear progresses. Not the mere fact that it does. Seperate everything by leagues and you get three times the same bore with increasing numbers. What we're left with is three leagues that could aswell be condensed to one. Edit: Tiericide or (Gò»-¦Gûí-¦)Gò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
I never said tieracide was a bad idea, but to me, it doesn't seem like a focus for CCP atm.
I fail to see how it defeats the purpose of tiers. We can take other games for example like WoW for comparison.
Battlegrounds in WoW were divided into tiers. Why?, because it made no sense for a level 60 (Proto Player) to battle a level 30(Standard). I liken our current system to what WoW pvp would have been like had they allowed an open FFA in PvP. Which was allowed on PvP servers, and demonstrated as high level chars murder lower level ones.
So when you have a divide of power between players that is tiered, it makes sense to tier your matchmaking in kind. For what is supposed to be a competitive game, it seems a lot of people are turned off about competition. Even now, a SP invested player, will have an easier time fitting standard suits than a new player. Still giving SP meaning, but giving the various tiers of gear, area's in which they can actually CHOOSE to compete.
It's about the competitive aspect of dust that is missing. It's not about the gear, or the SP investment, it's about having fun, competitive games, of our own choice.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
656
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Posted - 2014.03.10 21:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Where this comparison struggles is that WoW chars are supposed to scale by orders of magnitude every few levels. You will have higher stats and you will always use (and keep using) better gear the longer you play. Once you get to the top, there's no point, often not even an option, to go back. Seperating by tiers (or upscaling lowbies as some MMOs do) is reasonable because gear differences within matches add no worthwhile interaction.
The Dust tier system is not supposed to work that way. Getting the skills needed should give you the option to risk using "better", more expensive fits for a tangible performance increase when necessary. You're not supposed to run PRO fits outside of PC with any kind of consistency. The over-the top power scaling (that lets people pad their k/ds), combined with external funding (that makes ISK irrelevant), are the reasons why doing so is even worthwhile.
The PC change will help fix the external funding and tiericide will fix the power scaling.
Once you hit 60, leveling no longer becomes relevant (until the next expansion). You have reached the highest level possible, therefore the highest stats possible. Much like dust, end game WoW PvP WAS gear dependent. Everyone was basically on the same level aside from one determining factor, GEAR.
But there wasn't such the divide there is in dust, caused by gear. Unlike in WoW, a new player is forced to face proto gear, and actually needs these matches to gain the SP needed to advance to the PRO level.
It's like throwing a level 13 toon at mobs of level 17 monsters, telling them that they need to kill these until they are level 17. I use a low level comparison because a level 13 toon could defeat a level 17 monster. Though in Dust, it will take you a few months to obtain proto. So my comparison is more like a level 13 toon against level 30 monsters, you will die a lot, with rare kills every now and again, but it's going to be a LOOONG time until you can face off against this thing on even ground.
It just doesn't make sense. In WoW, you "Level Up" stats; strength, agility, ect. All the while working for better gear that WILL make differences in your ability to fight.
In Dust 514, you work to "Level Up" your gear, as well as several passive skills that affect said gear. All the while, you must do this against others that have already done the grind. It's like a level 60 toon, beating down on a level 30! Where is the divide?
In WoW, you at least have to option to engage in activities more akin to your LEVEL (in Dust's case it would be GEAR). Which is why I suggest leagues as an alternative to tieracide. And while I make comparisons with WoW, the idea is mainly sparked from SC2(Starcraft 2). A competitive game much like this one, that has much success tiering people based on their skill levels.
Proto gear, as I see it, is your level 60, your max level. Proto is where your end game lay. ADV and STD are stepping stones to the endgame (much like WoW, where lower levels were stepping stones to the meta game). ADV and STD serve as more of a guide to the meta.
The differences between STD and PRO would be focused more on the variety available. Fewer variants at STD, a few more at ADV, and a TON at Proto Level.
Basically what I'm saying, proto is where your "tieracide" will happen. A focus on improving the meta that is proto, IE, multiple suits and weapons of the same race made available at pro level. STD and ADV being limited in variety, but really only being there to as a guide to highest tier.
People have been calling for tieracide for a LONG time now. I just don't think it's necessary to rework every single detail like that. Adding skills beyond say a scout suit that add passive bonuses would do the trick. Meaning, once you get your proto scout suit unlocked, it unlocks skills specific to that suit to put points into. Then do the same with other level 5 skills. Creating the specializations everyone wants.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
658
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Posted - 2014.03.10 23:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Teiricide or even thinking that there is relevance to the term in this game is a boatload of crap, this is people complaining about mercs using their best gear in a match and getting stomped when they are too cheap to do the same with theirs. Total EHP from the Meta 1 version to the proto version of a suit is not noticeably different, just the level of gear on the suit. What this means is that if you are using meta 1 vs protogear you just need to be smarter on how you engage. I don't care how many of you seem to think this is needed...HTFU, grow a pair, or go find COD, everyone is equal there.
One, you expect every single person to have proto, which is NOT the case. Two, you assume there is no gap between proto and the other tiers.
Need I point out:
A huge slot difference, allowing for more total eHP, damage, ect.
Better stats all around on pro suits, having more PG/CPU and Shields/Armor
SP invested into Pro weapons, meaning better accuracy (kick or whatever else there is), and with specilization, increase damage on ALL variants.
Yeah, a lower level suit CAN kill a competent Pro player, though I expect luck, and incompetence on the Pro players part makes a bigger difference than "How you Engage". A dedicated Proto player holds an insane advantage over non proto players. That not strictly being gear dependent, but on SP. While I can easily obtain a proto weapon, it doesn't compare to someone with maxed proficiency in said weapon, plus weapons upgrades maxed for a damage mod or 2.
Not to mention a STD player is going against a player with double the slot count (in some cases), and a suit that naturally has a higher eHP and PG/CPU.
People aren't joking when they say a proto fit player can turn and kill a player that thinks they have the advantage, if said player isn't of high SP. I run a STD/ADV alt, that can kill proto players. Very slowly, and carefully, not to mention not often. Just a few shots seems to bring me down to nothing (ON A HEAVY!) against people invested in their suits and weapons.
While my little "Pea Shooter" slowly whittles away, often times hardly scratching the surface!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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