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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1200
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Posted - 2014.03.10 13:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Tiericide. There can be no balance with suit tiers. I disagree. While Tieracide is a possible solution, it's not the ONLY one. I can't say for sure, but it doesn't seem like tiers are going away anytime soon. As CCP is releasing reworks of weapons and suits, not to mention the tank changes, using the current tier system. Rather than work against the current system, we could go with the flow. Dividing battles into ranked leagues (tournament style gameplay), would allow for fair competition among the various tiers. No you are right, there can be no balance with the current system, but only because our current system does not allow for it. That defeats the original intend of tiers though. No matter what you use, everyone uses the same. It really doesn't make any difference within the leagues as long as you're half competent.
The mix of more and less effective fits, which will persist after tiericide but through specialization and not straight power, is the main reason why taking greater risks (cost) can yield higher rewards (performance). The problem is how gear progresses. Not the mere fact that it does.
Seperate everything by leagues and you get three times the same bore with increasing numbers. What we're left with is three leagues that could aswell be condensed to one.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1200
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Posted - 2014.03.10 15:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Tiericide. There can be no balance with suit tiers. I disagree. While Tieracide is a possible solution, it's not the ONLY one. I can't say for sure, but it doesn't seem like tiers are going away anytime soon. As CCP is releasing reworks of weapons and suits, not to mention the tank changes, using the current tier system. Rather than work against the current system, we could go with the flow. Dividing battles into ranked leagues (tournament style gameplay), would allow for fair competition among the various tiers. No you are right, there can be no balance with the current system, but only because our current system does not allow for it. That defeats the original intention of tiers though. No matter what you use, everyone you play with uses the same. It really doesn't make any difference within the leagues as long as you're half competent. The mix of more and less effective fits, which will persist after tiericide but through specialization and not straight power, is the main reason why taking greater risks (cost) can yield higher rewards (performance). The problem is how gear progresses. Not the mere fact that it does. Seperate everything by leagues and you get three times the same bore with increasing numbers. What we're left with is three leagues that could aswell be condensed to one. Edit: Tiericide or (Gò»-¦Gûí-¦)Gò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ I never said tieracide was a bad idea, but to me, it doesn't seem like a focus for CCP atm. I fail to see how it defeats the purpose of tiers. We can take other games for example like WoW for comparison. Battlegrounds in WoW were divided into tiers. Why?, because it made no sense for a level 60 (Proto Player) to battle a level 30(Standard). I liken our current system to what WoW pvp would have been like had they allowed an open FFA in PvP. Which was allowed on PvP servers, and demonstrated as high level chars murder lower level ones. So when you have a divide of power between players that is tiered, it makes sense to tier your matchmaking in kind. For what is supposed to be a competitive game, it seems a lot of people are turned off about competition. Even now, a SP invested player, will have an easier time fitting standard suits than a new player. Still giving SP meaning, but giving the various tiers of gear, area's in which they can actually CHOOSE to compete. It's about the competitive aspect of dust that is missing. It's not about the gear, or the SP investment, it's about having fun, competitive games, of our own choice. Where this comparison struggles is that WoW chars are supposed to scale by orders of magnitude every few levels. You will have higher stats and you will always use (and keep using) better gear the longer you play. Once you get to the top, there's no point, often not even an option, to go back. Seperating by tiers (or upscaling lowbies as some MMOs do) is reasonable because gear differences within matches add no worthwhile interaction.
The Dust tier system is not supposed to work that way. Getting the skills needed should give you the option to risk using "better", more expensive fits for a tangible performance increase when necessary. You're not supposed to run PRO fits outside of PC with any kind of consistency. The over-the top power scaling (that lets people pad their k/ds), combined with external funding (that makes ISK irrelevant), are the reasons why doing so is even worthwhile.
The PC changewill help fix the external funding and tiericide will fix the power scaling.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1203
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Posted - 2014.03.11 02:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:
[...] In WoW, you at least have to option to engage in activities more akin to your LEVEL (in Dust's case it would be GEAR). Which is why I suggest leagues as an alternative to tieracide. And while I make comparisons with WoW, the idea is mainly sparked from SC2(Starcraft 2). A competitive game much like this one, that has much success tiering people based on their skill levels.
That's a big part of the problem. New players have no option to do non-competitive actions and veterans only have this broken, highly exclusive ISK faucet that is PC to dump a few PRO/officer fits in. Players across the board need more options to get both extremes of the spectrum out of everyday matches. Beyond that, gear is a terribad factor for matchmaking to begin with. The same kind of people will dominate their respecive Tiers anyway.
Tebu Gan wrote:
Proto gear, as I see it, is your level 60, your max level. Proto is where your end game lay. ADV and STD are stepping stones to the endgame (much like WoW, where lower levels were stepping stones to the meta game). ADV and STD serve as more of a guide to the meta.
I will admit that it pretty much feels like this right now but, again, that was never the point of the tiers. That's not how this game's supposed to work, if you don't mind me putting it that way.
Meta is not a WoW-esque progression system. It's "bringing out the good stuff" when the combat situation warrants it and the potential payout is worth shelling out the price. Pubs are never really worth it. At least they shouldn't ever be.
Let me give an example. Can you generally sustain full PRO in pubs while sporting a 1.0 k/d? 2.0? 3.0 even? Not when you die even twice.
Your average pubmatch will pay for two fits at best. After that you are bound to go significantly ISK negative, no matter how well you do relative to others. It only works because of the absurd tier scaling and because those people don't have to care about the wasted ISK right now. Obviously you can not possibly expect average people to sustain their PRO fits in pubs once they have to face similarly strong PRO fits on a daily basis without arbitrarily increasing payouts.
The only place where spamming PRO is a financially sensible thing to do is PC and the only way a league system would work is by increasing payout in the higher leagues for no reason other than to let them keep spam PRO to stay in their "league". Can you do it? Sure. But that defeats the whole point meta lvls which is higher risk -> higher rewards and replaces it with three leagues that are, really, just the same ordeal with bigger overall numbers.
Tebu Gan wrote:
The differences between STD and PRO would be focused more on the variety available. Fewer variants at STD, a few more at ADV, and a TON at Proto Level.
That's pretty much what tiericide means. 
Abandon the concept of "plain stronger" gear and make each tier give more options to improve the stats your role needs at the cost of stats you don't care about. You will still improve. Just not in the way that your eHP triples without any downside.
Tebu Gan wrote:
Basically what I'm saying, proto is where your "tieracide" will happen. A focus on improving the meta that is proto, IE, multiple suits and weapons of the same race made available at pro level. STD and ADV being limited in variety, but really only being there to as a guide to highest tier.
People have been calling for tieracide for a LONG time now. I just don't think it's necessary to rework every single detail like that. Adding skills beyond say a scout suit that add passive bonuses would do the trick. Meaning, once you get your proto scout suit unlocked, it unlocks skills specific to that suit to put points into. Then do the same with other level 5 skills. Creating the specializations everyone wants.
Again PRO is not equal to a high level mmo character. The majority of players should not be using it regularly if at all. There is no "once you get there" in Dust because PRO is not supposed to be some kind of milestone where "the real game starts". There's no need to load even more advanced skills on the far high end of the power scale and it always translates to more grind.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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