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Giving the Assault Suit a More Defined Role Post-1.8

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Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 264	Posted - 2014.03.08 08:33:00 - [1] - Quote With the new dropsuit stats released for 1.8, people are worrying more than ever that the Assault suit will be heavily overshadowed by other suits. We're all aware of the current problem with Slayer Logis, and while I'm still greatly excited for it, 1.8 doesn't really seem to be solving this problem. It feels like the Assault suit hasn't really had a defined role to fill for a while. So I got to thinking: what should the designated role of Assault suits be? For a good starting place, let's check the in-game description: Quote: The Assault dropsuit is a versatile front-line combat suit that combines excellent protection, good mobility and sufficient equipment hard points for mission-specific customizations. Assault dropsuits are intended for standard combat operations or those in which objectives are likely to change at a moment's notice. Its ability to carry anything from small arms and explosives to heavy anti-vehicle munitions and deployable support gear makes it the most adaptable suit on the battlefield. So, as has been said time and time again, it seems the basic idea of the Assault suit is to truly be the "jack of all trades, master of none". So it should be the least niche suit; able to perform many different roles effectively, but not really excelling at any one. But I'd like to take this a step farther, specifically analyzing this line: Quote: Assault dropsuits are intended for standard combat operations or those in which objectives are likely to change at a moment's notice. This seems to imply that the Assault suit is also good at switching locations quickly, as well as being prepared for many different scenarios. From this, we could extrapolate that Assault suits are meant to be very good at dictating when and where their engagements happen, and always being able to switch to a more advantageous position during engagements. Given all this, I've come up with this as a more solid designated role: The Adaptable Shock Trooper. Able to move swiftly both between locations and their role on the battlefield. The suit with unmatched flexibility, also able to get in quick and hit the enemy hard and fast when need-be. So, now that we've got an idea, how do we change the current Assault suit to fill this role? Step 1: Modules- In order to truly be the most flexible and adaptable suit, I believe that the Assault suit needs to have the most module slots of any suit. If this weren't true before, I'd say it definitely is with 1.8 on the rise, and all the other suits finding specific niches to fill. In order to avoid raising the overall power scale of the game, I'd recommend lowering all Logi suits' total slot count by 1, and then raising the Assault suits to have 1 more than Logis overall. Having the most modules available means you can customize your suit for whatever specific scenario you want, or make some hodgepodge in between specific specializations. This reinforces the flexibility aspect of the suit's role. Step 2: Bonuses- So let's take a quick look at the current 1.8 Assault suit bonuses: Quote: Assault [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons] - Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level. - Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level. - Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm clip size per level. - Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level. The overall idea of these bonuses seems to be allowing the Assault suit to spend more time shooting, and less time having to worry about ammo conservation/heat build-up/reloading/etc. This would seem to fit in nicely with the shock trooper aspect of the suit, allowing you to keep on the move and keep hitting targets from different sides without having to stop to worry about your ammo situation. However, while I feel that the Minmatar and Amarr bonuses achieve this quite feel, I have some discrepancies with the other two. The Caldari bonus, while in some sense reducing the time spent not firing, doesn't actually really allow more continuous fire though, or allow you to more effectively dictate where your fights are happening. I would prefer either a reduction to the charge-up time of railgun weaponry (Note: this option also requires an increase of the RR charge-up time to at least 0.5 seconds, which I believe needs to happen anyway) or an increase to the effective ranges of railgun weaponry (with a correspondingly less steep falloff, at least to the effective range). Either of these would allow the Caldari Assault to focus less on ammo conservation, as well as better controlling fights. The Gallente bonus isn't terrible. It should effectively allow you to hit with more of your shots, meaning that you'll have to fire less overall. In some sense, this would mean that more continuous fire within one clip is possible. In addition, the bonus affecting your hip-fire accuracy reinforces the mobile shock trooper role, actively encouraging you to fire from the hip while staying on the move. So, yea like I said, not terrible. Although I'm also not sure it's necessarily the best. If anyone has a better suggestion, please post it below. Anyways, that's it. Gee...that ended up longer than I expected. So, what's everyone think? TL;DR: Assault suits need a more defined role, I like the idea of them being the Adaptable Shock Trooper. To encourage their flexibility and adaptability, they need to have the most module slots of any suit. GÇó Their bonuses also need to reinforce this role, allowing the Assault suit to fire continuously without worrying about ammo conservation. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 271	Posted - 2014.03.08 09:09:00 - [2] - Quote Joel II X wrote: The thing about the Gallente Assault is that it only benefits one weapon: the AR. How is a shotgun going to benefit? Plasma Cannon? Perhaps Ion Pistol will, too. So only half of their weapons. I'd say we get a RoF increase to match our assault style (it's the Gallente's niche) That's a very valid point about the bonus only really affecting one weapon. Like I said, I'm not really sure it's the best possible bonus. But unfortunately I have yet to think of a better one. Of course keep in mind that the Amarr bonus only affects two weapons, as does the Minmatar (and one of those is a sidearm). I think this is more of a problem with limited weapons available. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 284	Posted - 2014.03.09 05:43:00 - [3] - Quote There's been some interesting points brought up in this thread. Mainly about the balance between Assaults and Logis. Having thought about it more in-depth for a bit, I've come to belief that Logis and Assaults should have the same total slot count, and by that I mean including module slots, weapon slots, equipment slots, etc. Of course Logis will have more equipment, so Assaults will end up with more module slots anyway. Once this is done, give Logis slightly more base HP than Assaults, while giving Assaults slightly more base mobility than Logis. I think this would keep them both very well balanced. After looking at some specific numbers, I'll probably go ahead and some of this to the OP. So now the related question, one I'd enjoy several answers for: Are all slots created equal? Certainly it could be argued that a Light Weapon slot is more valuable than a simple Module slot. Of course all Logis and Assaults get a Light Weapon Slot anyway, so that's easily balanced. But with things like Sidearms, Grenades, and Equipment, it can get a little less clear cut. Personally, I wouldn't mind just treating all the non-Light Weapon slots as equal, but what does everyone else think? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 286	Posted - 2014.03.10 02:49:00 - [4] - Quote Outer Raven wrote: What if assault suits had access to jump packs like actual shock troopers. Which uh, actual shock troopers are you referring to? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 286	Posted - 2014.03.10 04:36:00 - [5] - Quote So I put some more thought into this issue and did some math, specifically looking at Logi vs. Assault layout. As I said before, I'd like to see both suits have the same total number of slots at each tier, to keep them well balanced. And of course I'd like to see Assaults get the most module slots of any suit, but still think that Logis should be just under them in that regard. So let's look at some existing Logi suits, the Minmatar and Gallente, at PRO. They both have similar slot layouts, so this should be a good starting point. Now, figuring that the Light Weapon slot, Grenade slot, and first Equipment slot cancel out when comparing to the Assaults (since Assault suits get these as well), both of these suits have 11 "extra" slots (8 H/L, 3 E). To keep the overall power scale of the game from rising, let's take away one of their module slots, bringing them to 10 total extra slots. So both the Gallente and Minmatar Logis would have 7 High/Low slots, and 4 Equipment at PRO, of course still retaining their Light Weapon and Grenade slots. Now we can use this same setup to figure out the other Logis' slot layouts. The Amarr Logi at PRO has one less Equipment slot, but gains a Sidearm slot, so it should keep the same 7 module slots. The Caldari Logi has neither the extra Equipment or Sidearm, so it should get 8 module slots (alternatively, the Caldari Logi could just be given this extra Equipment and have it's module slots at 7 like the rest). So all Logis keep the same pattern of 10 "extra' slots. And at last we can get back to the Assault suits. Assuming all other suit stats are equal, Assaults and Logis should both have the same total number of slots available. So Assaults will need the same 10 extra slots. Assaults get a Sidearm slot, so that leaves them with 9 module slots to make up that 10 extra. Personally, I'm actually not a big fan of this option. First of all, 9 module slots seems to be getting a little out of hand, especially when every racial variant would be getting them. This would also severely hamper diversity between the racial variants, as every suit's slot layout would have to be either 5/4 or 4/5 for H/L. So, to work around this, I suggest instead giving PRO Assault suits 8 module slots across the board, as well as slight stat buffs to compensate for the lost slot. In my OP I mentioned that I'd like for Logis to have higher HP but worse mobility when compared to Assaults. I'd very much like for this to stay the case, so I'd recommend adding more to the mobility based stats (speed, max stamina, stamina regen) than to base HP when taking this last step. Basically, no matter what, I think Logis should always have higher base HP than their Assault counterparts. Ok, hopefully this all made sense. If not, questions? Thoughts? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.10 09:28:00 - [6] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: If we add midslots and open up highs to weapons it simplifies things a bit. Max of 8 slots You can have high slot mods or use the equipment, weapon, grenade hardpoints. Shields go back to mid, speed mods move up to mids. Caldari 4-7-3 Amarr 4-2-8 Min 4-5-5 Galente 4-3-7 The four highs can be used as you want but you get 1 main hard point, 1 sidearm, 1 grenade, 1 equipment. Use a gun and 3 high mods, or use gun sidearm equipment and trade a grenade for a high slot mod. whatever you can think of. Logis would have 5-7 highs, with 3-4 equipment hardpoints. You don't have to run a gun even. Amarr get their heavy armor focus, minmatar are versatile, gallente favor armor, caldari favor shields. Everyones happy, just gotta fix the mod layouts, we can play with them as needed. Now, we add resistances in lows obviously. Damage mods get they're racial designation and go low. one mod for laser damage, one for projectile, etc, etc. can go back to 10% at proto to help against damage resists. Scale to ccps tastes. Also standard frames get two bonus. None of this no role specialization garbage. Then assaults get two bonuses based on their medium skill, and two based on assault. Weapons get rebalanced to account for more health and more robust bonuses. to clarify on assault bonuses. If I'm level 5 medium and level 3 assault. I get 5% to A and B per medium level I get 5% to C and 4% to D per assault A+25% B+25% C+15% D+12% Standard medium suits would get they're own unique a and b but no c or d. What those letters actually represent varies on a suit to suit basis and by race. I don't mean to be rude, but that was far from simple. I don't play Eve, for the record. And while I have nothing against borrowing aspects of Eve if they'll work well for Dust, I don't believe that just copy and pasting every mechanic is necessarily the way to go. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.10 10:21:00 - [7] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I will add this to the discussion: - Assault needs 2 equipment slots. - Assault suit needs something like a jetpack making them the fastest moving suit over long distances. One equipment slot will be used to fit the jetpack. - Assault suit needs CPU and PG. Dont think more slots will solve the problems we see today. I don't really think asking for costly new features is the most efficient or even just the best way to balance Assault suits, especially when thinking realistically. Aside from that, is using one specific piece of Equipment really a solid role? Auris Lionesse wrote: I don't mean to be rude, but that was far from simple. I don't play Eve, for the record. And while I have nothing against borrowing aspects of Eve if they'll work well for Dust, I don't believe that just copy and pasting every mechanic is necessarily the way to go. I meant more so that it's simpler to use what we know works than try to salvage a system that doesn't appear to be working. What dust is doing right now is basically turning everything on it's head. amarr can't armor tank like they should, minmatar say their suits are useless. This alleviates much of that and opens the game up to the depth an mmofps within eve should have. Trying to cram it into 2 groups of 5 is much harder than working with the 8-8-8 system. at least I think so. It adds more variety among suits also. There's still chunks missing and if were gonna fill it in and add new stuff to compliment fps mechanics 5-5 just doesn't work. There's not enough room. [/quote] The problems with races not meeting their expected conventions is a very easily fixed numbers issue, not something systemic to Dust. Remember that while certain mechanics and conventions from Eve may work very well in Dust, some will just flat-out not, usually due to the vast difference between the pace of the two games. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.10 10:32:00 - [8] - Quote Meee One wrote: Was expecting a thread by assault class users about getting relevant bonuses. I found a thread screaming "we're jealous of logis and we want their slots". ....I find the "we" part of that kinda funny. Nothing constructive or useful then? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.10 10:49:00 - [9] - Quote Meee One wrote: Summ Dude wrote: Meee One wrote: Was expecting a thread by assault class users about getting relevant bonuses. I found a thread screaming "we're jealous of logis and we want their slots". ....I find the "we" part of that kinda funny. Nothing constructive or useful then? Says the person who refuses to acknowledge this thread relating to dropsuit changes. It shows assaults are faster AND better tanked with GREATER regen ability (base stats),yet you still want to steal a slot from logis. Protip:Check the 2nd post. I....what? I "refuse" to "acknowledge" that thread? What does that even mean? I have read those stats, for the record. But more to the point, how would you have any way of knowing whether or not I had? That statement makes literally no sense. I don't think that you actually read all of my idea, because I suggest that first Assaults' and Logis' respective slots are balanced, and then their stats are. Personally, I like the idea of Logis having higher base HP, while Assaults gain more mobility and base regen. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.11 09:16:00 - [10] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Speed and regen will be relevant in 1.8 with the adjusted TTK. A fast suit will be able to break contact and get to cover to regen. This whole topic on balancing is off track, as all of the suggested ideas are assuming game play will be exactly the same after the next patch. Hopefully, anyway. I'd really like to see speed/shield/regen tanking become more viable in 1.8. But in case my thread title didn't give it away, my suggestions are in no way the product of ignoring 1.8. My goal here is to give Assault suits a more defined role specifically in 1.8. Doshneil Antaro wrote: Damage mods at the old values combined with extra mod slots is why everyone went logi in the first place. At the start of 1.8, the extra mod slots is too much still, but the assaults new bonuses will help almost even it out. After which, we do need to make all the med suits equal in H/L slots. This allows the logi to still overcome the speed, regen, and tank differences the assault has, but will never be able to attain as much of either. I agree that Slayer Logis are so popular mainly because of the extra slots. On the point of bonuses, I would much rather that the suits' stats/slots were balanced against each other, as well as their bonuses independently. I don't necessarily want all H/L slots equal on medium suits across the board; there's nothing wrong with some diversity and deviation to keep things feeling unique. Doshneil Antaro wrote: With one less H/L slots EVEN with buffs to the stats of the logi, and the logi will have no choices in how to build their suits. All mods slots would be devoted to tank only. This would still leave us with less ehp than what is achievable by assaults, less effective regen abilities, as well as being slow moving ducks waddling around, with not enough firepower to survive.This would make this suit a novelty for the rich isk/sp players only. That argument doesn't really make sense to me, as you could say exactly the same thing about Assault suits then. Anyway, having one less module than the suit with the highest module count doesn't exactly "limit" flexibility. And just as a reminder, I'd like to give Logis more base EHP, Assaults more base mobility, and then balance the total slot counts. What exactly what make Logis a "novelty for the rich"? Doshneil Antaro wrote: All med suits all the core should be the same. The only differences should be the logi gets more equipment and reduced speed to the extra weight, and differences in class bonuses. This means regen, HP, stamina and H/L need to be the same across the board. They should be the same suits, with just minor modifications that allow them to perform in there specialty effectively. Assaults bonuses to their weapon and ability to carry a sidearm makes the combat superior to killing the logi, even the amar with their sidearm. The logis slower speed makes them sitting ducks, but they can put out equipment to help their team effectively. That sounds....incredibly uninteresting. Having the suits be 90% similar with the smallest of changes wouldn't make either suit really feel all that specialized or (in my opinion) as fun to play as. Doshneil Antaro wrote: A high slot with shield extender is greater than a uplink. A low slot with an armor plate is greater than a rep tool. A sidearm is greater than nanoinjector. These are reasons why we cannot count total slots of a suit, and have to treat them as just part of the specialization bonus the suit gets. The only reason to have a different slot layout would be if the were their own tree and type of suit. As it is, to try out a logi, you have to spec into the basic med. This is basically an assault suit stripped of the role bonus. This implies these are the same suits, and should be built at the core the same. This would balance the two specializations out. That's all incredibly debatable. Equipment can be very useful both in regards to helping your team, and helping you by giving you a whole heaping pile of WP. I'd certainly say one Equipment slot is worth at least one Module slot. To try out an Assault, you also have to spec into the Basic Medium Frame, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. I do think that the Basic Frames could use some tweaking; personally I like Kagehoshi's idea on that subject. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.

Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.11 23:27:00 - [11] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: I keep telling people not to discount the new general assault bonus. With maxed light weapons and sidearms and maxed fitting optimization we'll be fitting proto weapons at the CPU/PG cost of advanced and fitting specialist weapons at the cost of standard Who was discounting it? I think it's a fine bonus. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 288	Posted - 2014.03.12 19:38:00 - [12] - Quote Meee One wrote: It seems to me that assaults are ignoring their base stat advantage,just to come up with an excuse to gimp logis more than they are already being gimped in 1.8 To equal an assaults BASE stats,before they add ANY modules would take minimal 5 slots. Shield extender,shield regulator,armor plate,cardiac regulator,kinetic catalyser. And a basic logi Gk has 2 lows,while a basic assault Gk has 2 lows and 1 high. So, even if a Gk.0 used 5 slots to be equal with assaults base stats it would leave them with 3 slots. All while an assault has ZERO used to attain their tank and speed and still has access to 100% of their slots. I can't make it any easier for you retards to understand. Ok, just for posterity, once again: First balance the slots between the two suits, then balance the base stats. Give Assaults more base mobility, and give Logis more base EHP. Did you find that easy enough to understand? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 290	Posted - 2014.03.13 02:40:00 - [13] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: amarr needs to have more slots. 1 more low and 1 less high than gallente at least. Minmatar should have the even slot layout. I'm not against that. Honestly I was more concerned with balancing slots overall then the specific High/Low layout. But, I might add more specific layouts to flesh out the idea a bit, if I have the time. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 291	Posted - 2014.03.13 06:28:00 - [14] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Summ Dude wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: amarr needs to have more slots. 1 more low and 1 less high than gallente at least. Minmatar should have the even slot layout. I'm not against that. Honestly I was more concerned with balancing slots overall then the specific High/Low layout. But, I might add more specific layouts to flesh out the idea a bit, if I have the time. Slots overall? As in 2 equipment slots and 1 low versus 2 lows and 1 equip slot? Yes, I'm measuring by overall slots. Including Sidearm, Grenade, Equipment, and Module slots. Evicer wrote: Uh .........."Can I get TL:DR ?" ( he says in his southern baptist preacher voice) Assaults are slamming into the objective and Assaulting thats what they do. Check the bottom of the OP for a TL;DR. That's fine as an idea for the role of Assaults, but I don't see anything in 1.8 that definitively makes them the best at doing that. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 293	Posted - 2014.03.13 07:06:00 - [15] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Assaults should be the jack of all trades but master of none in my opinion. Thus it should have the slot layout to support said ideology. I more or less agree. But as I've said, I tend to prefer the label Adaptable Shock Trooper. Not just a generalist suit, but a flexible suit that can be prepared for any situation, and is able to shape the battlefield to suit its needs. I believe that having the most module slots of any suit would help to encourage this role. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 294	Posted - 2014.03.13 22:16:00 - [16] - Quote So I had the idea that maybe instead of Assaults getting slightly better overall base stats than Logis, they could just get another module slot somewhere. Suggested Medium Suit Slot Layouts Assault: Amarr: 1LW/2S/1G/1EQ/3H/5L Caldari: 1LW/1S/1G/1EQ/5H/4L Gallente: 1LW/1S/1G/2EQ/3H/5L Minmatar: 1LW/1S/2G/1EQ/4H/4L Logi: Amarr: 1LW/1S/1G/3EQ/3H/4L Caldari: 1LW/1G/3EQ/5H/3L Gallente: 1LW/1G/4EQ/2H/5L Minmatar: 1LW/1G/4EQ/4H/3L So this leaves all medium suits with 13 total slots at PRO. All of the Logis get 7 module slots, except for the Caldari which gets 8, due to not having a bonus Sidearm or Equipment slot. All of the Assaults get 8 module slots, again except for the Caldari, which has 9. The Amarr Assault gets an extra Sidearm; this is in line with the Amarr Logi, and allows the suit to constantly have a weapon ready to switch to. The Gallente Assault gets a bonus Equipment slot, in keeping with Gallente's philosophy of preserving life. The Minmatar Assault gets an extra Grenade slot, as the Minmatar love explosions, and it's arguably the best with grenades due to it's speed. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 298	Posted - 2014.03.15 08:40:00 - [17] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Suits Each starter fit would have a static bonus and each bonus would be different from the others in that race. That static bonus would reflect one of that race's style. Amarr bonus would be to energy weapons and armor and Caldari would be more focused on shield and ranged combat and so on. The slots can be slightly different in the starters but mostly the same When we move to the light frames each suit would get a per level of light frame bonus. Similar slots to the starter. Light Advanced frames would get a per level of light frame bonus and a per level of scout bonus. These bonuses would be different than the standard frame per level bonuses to give them their specialty. The standard may have 5% per level to armor mods but the advanced would have 5% to armor repairer per level and 3% reduction in armor repairer CPU. There are Two Light suits in the tree I made and both would have different bonuses given on the suit and per level of skill. Light Prototype suits would have a static bonus and two unique bonus per level but it would come with a missing slot or a slot moved to high from low, anything to make it different to almost the point of gimping if not used within its role. Giving a suit an extra sidearm or grenade slot would be a perfect way to give a proto suit a unique feel as long as it comes with some type of drawback. Yea I'm....not sure exactly what I'm looking at here. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 298	Posted - 2014.03.15 08:52:00 - [18] - Quote bamboo x wrote: Joel II X wrote: The thing about the Gallente Assault is that it only benefits one weapon: the AR. How is a shotgun going to benefit? Plasma Cannon? Perhaps Ion Pistol will, too. So only half of their weapons. I'd say we get a RoF increase to match our assault style (it's the Gallente's niche) Take a second to forget about Dust and think about other FPS games. I always hated the shotgun, because the range is horrendous. It's less of a shotgun and more of a portable shrapnel launcher. I'd love to see how this turns out for shotguns because REAL shotguns have short to medium range, not short to point blank. This is pretty unrelated, but it's worth saying: What happens in real life has no bearing on this game, at all. I don't care what a real world assault rifle can do. Because in Dust, we're not shooting real world assault rifles at real world infantry. We're shooting future space guns that actually fire ionized plasma bolts at mercenaries in high-tech super space Iron Man suits. Real life doesn't really mean squat. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 300	Posted - 2014.03.15 11:35:00 - [19] - Quote Evicer wrote: I dont often insult people on the forums but this has to be the dumbest thread Ive seen in along time....... You want more slots on the assaults but you wont have enough pgu/cpu to run all those modules not only that. If say they (CCP) did bump the cpu/pg of the assaults AND give you more slots then you just change the names of the suits.They're both medium frames.......except the logi's ARE slower.Have less base hp.Slower strafe speed.Slower turn speed. Less stamina.Slower sprint speed......AAAAAAANNNNNNNNDDDDD LESS SP REQUIREMENT. LOL wow let me get off these forums while all these ******** germs are floating around lest they contaminate me....... That's um, pretty far from helpful. But ok. It would seem you didn't read the whole idea, as you evidently missed the part where I suggested giving Logis more base EHP, while giving Assaults more base mobility. Balance the slots, then the stats. Make sense? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 300	Posted - 2014.03.15 20:18:00 - [20] - Quote Bubba Rector wrote: I say, take away the base bonus of 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons and instead give a 5% bonus to damage mod effectiveness. Add 1 extra equipment slot and increase the base CPU and PG by 10%. Now you have a viable assault class that is very deadly and versatile. I actually quite like the 1.8 Assault role bonus, and remember that Damage Mods are getting nerfed in 1.8, so a bonus to them would mean even less. Simply adding one extra Equipment slot to Assaults would still leave them with less total slots than Logis, which I have a problem with. What exactly about your suggested changes would actually make the suit more versatile? Or specifically more versatile than a Logi by comparison? Monkey MAC wrote: I don't think you quite understood the Suits orginal description, the description you suggested afterwards sounds more like a heavy scout Assaults are meant to be versatile as in they can be used for anything and everything. Need AV? Take an Assault Suit Need Shock Trooper take an Assault Suit so on and so forth. I don't think the T2 dropsuit systems really allow the Assault to do the job it should be capable of doing. 1) New Equipment: Laser Designator An Assault dropsuit with a laser designator is truly one of the most versatile units available. The user can designate upto 4 unique tasks ranging from bombing runs amd artillery strikes, to vehicular transportation and team orders. These requests can even be seen by team commanders who can route them to the best equipped units to respond. 2) Orbital Depot Drop: Assaults are the only unit capable of deploying new supply depots to the field. Unlike other units which can only drop small/large turret installations, the Assault suit is also capable of delivering a supply depot to ground forces nearby, this allows them to remain active no matter the circumstances, for a price. 3) T3 Weapon Customization: With the introduction of the T3 weapons systems most units obtained the ability to build weapons exactly to their liking, however the Assault suit also gained a few extra advantages. With a T3 weapons system the Assault Suit can forgo deployable equipment in order to modify their weapon on the fly mid-battle. You can still only have 1 light weapon, but for example in T3 you get a frame and a main assembly, you can swap outmthe main assembly, so an Assault Rifle can modified into Tactical Assault Rifle or an Assault Mass Driver can be changed to a breach as the need arises. This doesn't encroach on the Commando's field as it is still only 1 weapon. But the weapon can now be tweaked mid-battle. I'm not sure what you mean by saying I misunderstood the description. I do very much like the idea of Assaults being the most flexible suits, that's pretty much what I'm going for here. One or some of these ideas might work, but they all also require a hefty set of new resources to be added to the game first. What I'm offering is a practical solution based on what's already in the game, and that can be implemented without adding any new resources. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.

Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 307	Posted - 2014.03.17 23:47:00 - [21] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: Summ Dude wrote: So I had the idea that maybe instead of Assaults getting slightly better overall base stats than Logis, they could just get another module slot somewhere. Suggested Medium Suit Slot Layouts Assault: Amarr: 1LW/2S/1G/1EQ/3H/5L Caldari: 1LW/1S/1G/1EQ/5H/4L Gallente: 1LW/1S/1G/2EQ/3H/5L Minmatar: 1LW/1S/2G/1EQ/4H/4L Logi: Amarr: 1LW/1S/1G/3EQ/3H/4L Caldari: 1LW/1G/3EQ/5H/3L Gallente: 1LW/1G/4EQ/2H/5L Minmatar: 1LW/1G/4EQ/4H/3L So this leaves all medium suits with 13 total slots at PRO. All of the Logis get 7 module slots, except for the Caldari which gets 8, due to not having a bonus Sidearm or Equipment slot. All of the Assaults get 8 module slots, again except for the Caldari, which has 9. The Amarr Assault gets an extra Sidearm; this is in line with the Amarr Logi, and allows the suit to constantly have a weapon ready to switch to. The Gallente Assault gets a bonus Equipment slot, in keeping with Gallente's philosophy of preserving life. The Minmatar Assault gets an extra Grenade slot, as the Minmatar love explosions, and it's arguably the best with grenades due to it's speed. I guess I'll give you feedback. I don't think Assaults need to have more module slots than Logis. Ideally, Logis have the same as Assaults. I do like your idea of giving Assaults 'other' slots though. I think if just this was done, Assaults would be in a good place. Well, I'm giving Assaults and Logis the same total number of slots, including Equipment. Logis can get the extra Equipment to make them better team support units, while Assaults can get the extra module slot (note that it's only one over the respective Logi) and extra Sidearm/Equipment/Grenade slot to be more flexible units. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 310	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:00:00 - [22] - Quote RINON114 wrote: I think assaults (and basic mediums) just need another equipment slot and a slightly better bonus, something like a bonus to speed or efficacy of race based modules. The Gallente assault bonus should be a reduction to the speed penalty of armout plates for example. With a second equipment slot people will already thinking about ditching the logi in order to retain some versatility and keep their sidearm, speed and basic HP. But one extra Equipment slot alone still leaves the Assault with less total slots than Logis. I'm also not sure that a second Equipment slot across the board would be the most interesting thing to give Assault suits. As for the bonuses, I'm fine with the Minmatar and Amarr Assault bonuses. I offered my suggestion for the Caldari, but I'm still not exactly sure what would work better for the Gallente. But I do like the idea of them all affecting their racial weaponry. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 311	Posted - 2014.03.18 08:11:00 - [23] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Equipment has nothing to do with assaulting lol. We need bonuses to tank and weapons. and a slot layout that prioritized that. Speed is negligible until speed tanking becomes viable. Ask minmatar users who say speed tanking is dead. having a small higher base speed doesn't give it any advantages over a logi. With the state blasters are in gallente might as well get a 20% damage increase since the ar's are already the lowest dps of the rifles where it should be the highest. Or be allowed to use all hybrids. Rails are as much a gallente weapon as caldari. Idk why caldari assault can't have the quick logi shield delay and get a regulator bonus for shield tanking. give it a bigger boost to regulators than the current logi I had suggested in the past giving the Gallente Assault a bonus to the RoF of plasma weaponry. It would benefit more than just the AR, and would actually result in an effective DPS buff. And I mean, I still don't hate this idea, it would at least be slightly better than the current 1.8 bonus I think. But I'm still not sure it's the best possible way to go, I'd really like to think of something that allows you more continuous fire/less ammo conservation required. As for the Caldari Assault, do you have something against a bonus giving a reduction to railgun weaponry charge-up time? Assuming the RR's charge-up time was increased to at least 0.5s. I really do like the idea of all the Assault suits getting bonuses to their racial weaponry. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 311	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:02:00 - [24] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: Plain and simple: assaults are offensive builds based primarily on skill. Its a true military issue style suit based on the idea of "do more with less", but with bonuses. People rip amar assaults. Perfect the scrambler rile and the amarr assaualt with scrambler is op. The scrambler rifle has the greatest reward for skill in this game. the minmatar has 7.43 base speed. Ever fight one on elevations? Adv assault has 3 high slots. Damage mods and sheilds with that speed is a crap suit? Thats starting scout speed. But everyone wants to be a scout? The gal adv scout has 1 less high slot and same speed. Im gallente. I run my gal assaults like scouts and am getting 20 kills a lot. 2 high 3 low is awesome. My base hp is 412 and im getting a lot done. Caldari assault has the same as minmatar. 3 high 2 low. How does that not work on adv? the truth is there is a large skill gap and a low average dust IQ in this player base and it can solely be blamed frustrations based on prefference and lack of creativity. The assault is incredibly versatile. Its not all tank/dps. Thats just sloppy. And now everyone wants to be a scout? Scouts are dead the very second some one hangs back and attentively runs perimeters. But im going gallente assault. That is the best assault with armor regen, 25% lite weapons cpu/pg reduction and 25% sharpshooter hip fire reduction. Ide go mimatar proto assault before scout in a heart beat. 600 sheilds with that speed? Gtfo here with assault gripes. I did not see a single response to any suggestion or point I made during any portion of this entire thread. So. The 1.8 Minmatar Assault movement speed is 5.3 m/s. Were you maybe referring to sprint speed? The 1.8 Gallente Scout has a movement speed of 5.45 m/s, which is....faster... Not sure where you're getting your information from. Your ego aside, simply looking at the numbers, it's not hard to see why so many players choose to run Assault Logis over actual Assault suits. I don't see how the suit with both less Module slots and less Equipment slots is more versatile. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 314	Posted - 2014.03.18 20:19:00 - [25] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: In terms of fittings, logis are meant to be more versatile, that's why they have more slots. I like that idea. The trade off is that logis shouldn't be able to be fitted to be as good at assaulting as assault suits. Attributes that are helpful for assaulting are maneuverability, damage, hp and weapons. I see that you have your own idea on how to balance Assaults vs. Logis, and I have no problem with that. So, why do you feel that Logis are meant to be more versatile than Assaults? I had always figured they were intended to mainly be relegated to a support role. Varoth Drac wrote: At the moment the problems are: Maneuverability* is less important than hp due to short TTK favoring slayer logis. Armour tanking is currently superior due to low TTK and op damage mods, combined with logis innate armour rep further favors slayer logis. Sidearms are less important due to low TTK. Also the proficiency changes coming in 1.8 will favor using sidearms to plug damage type shortfalls. These issues are being resolved in 1.8. You have some good points here. I am interested to see how the TTK changes in 1.8 shake things up, but I'm not very confident that it'll completely balance these suits. And I don't really see a lot of people clamoring for the Assault suit come 1.8. Varoth Drac wrote: Can I point out that the ability to move around quickly is an advantage that many people seem to under-appreciate. Ask any scout player (such as myself) what can be achieved with high mobility. In the current realm of armor logis people seem to forget this. (I also see this phenomenon in the 1.8 heavy QQ threads). This is very true. As a heavy, I'm very aware of the value mobility has, and it shouldn't be underestimated. I'd like for Assault suits to keep a higher base mobility over Logis, while losing base EHP. Varoth Drac wrote:* This combined with the bonuses to weapon fitting on assaults (think about this, you want to fit your proto assault rail rifle? Easier on an assault suit) should give assault suits the role currently taken by slayer logis, i.e. assaulting stuff. As has already been pointed out, this will really only be the case when Assault suits are given more CPU/PG, as right now they're even beaten in that regard by Scouts. Varoth Drac wrote: If after 1.8 people still find assault suits lacking compared to logis, assault suits should be given either more base hp or more speed/stamina. I would not agree with giving them more slots or equipment as this spoils the distinction between assaults and logis. Logis have more options, assaults have better base stats, it should stay that way. I don't see how giving Assaults more Module slots than Logis "spoils" the distinction between the two. Why "should" it stay that way, exactly? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 350	Posted - 2014.04.08 18:36:00 - [26] - Quote It occurred to me that Assault suits are, in a sense, getting jipped on their bonuses. Here's the full idea. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.

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