DUST Search - Logis can't be allowed so much CPU and PG with their new skill b...

ResistanceGTA wrote:

Django Quik wrote:

CCP Logibro wrote:

Unfortunately we didn't get a chance to redo the slots and PG/CPU for all the medium frames in Uprising 1.8. Expect those changes to come in a future update.

There have been 2 problems with logis up to now:
1) Innate armor reps
2) Loads of CPU and PG

With 1.8 the change to the logi skill bonus from innate reps to equipment fitting, fixes one of those problems, however if the fittings stats of logi suits are not now reduced, the 2nd problem becomes so much worse. Logis will be able to anything they want (except for 2 weapons). The logi slayer problem will be out of control with them now able to fit not only proto equipment but totally fill their slots with complex mods and a proto weapon too. And that whole thing about the cloak not being able to be fitted on anything but scouts without totally gimping their fits - well, you can throw that out the window for logis because they'll be able to fit them fine (even if their fittings bonus doesn't apply to cloaks).

Actually Logis will not be able to do anything they want. Gal Logis that aren't just pure slayers know this. Running a full set of Proto Equipment, even with the 25% reduction is still fitting intensive. Without the innate armor reps, most Logis that have relied on the innate reps will have to change their fittings around.

Could we stop with the gloom, maybe try it out...

Slayer Logis can't be 'fixed' only the other classes can be made better. Nerf Logis to stop Slayer Logis, you nerf the actual Logis even worse.

Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.


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Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 819	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:30:00 - [1] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Django Quik wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Unfortunately we didn't get a chance to redo the slots and PG/CPU for all the medium frames in Uprising 1.8. Expect those changes to come in a future update. There have been 2 problems with logis up to now: 1) Innate armor reps 2) Loads of CPU and PG With 1.8 the change to the logi skill bonus from innate reps to equipment fitting, fixes one of those problems, however if the fittings stats of logi suits are not now reduced, the 2nd problem becomes so much worse. Logis will be able to anything they want (except for 2 weapons). The logi slayer problem will be out of control with them now able to fit not only proto equipment but totally fill their slots with complex mods and a proto weapon too. And that whole thing about the cloak not being able to be fitted on anything but scouts without totally gimping their fits - well, you can throw that out the window for logis because they'll be able to fit them fine (even if their fittings bonus doesn't apply to cloaks). Actually Logis will not be able to do anything they want. Gal Logis that aren't just pure slayers know this. Running a full set of Proto Equipment, even with the 25% reduction is still fitting intensive. Without the innate armor reps, most Logis that have relied on the innate reps will have to change their fittings around. Could we stop with the gloom, maybe try it out... Slayer Logis can't be 'fixed' only the other classes can be made better. Nerf Logis to stop Slayer Logis, you nerf the actual Logis even worse. Yep, with my Proto Gal Logi I can either fit advanced equipment, complex/enhanced mods, and a proto gun OR I switch to a Adv gun and use proto equipment with a mix of complex/enhanced mods. With damage mods nerfed you will see less use for the slayer logi. Anyone who wants to slay and be tanked and slow is much better going the commando route come 1.8. Believe me you should be more worried about Sentinels than slayer logis this next update. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 820	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:43:00 - [2] - Quote Django Quik wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Unfortunately we didn't get a chance to redo the slots and PG/CPU for all the medium frames in Uprising 1.8. Expect those changes to come in a future update. There have been 2 problems with logis up to now: 1) Innate armor reps 2) Loads of CPU and PG With 1.8 the change to the logi skill bonus from innate reps to equipment fitting, fixes one of those problems, however if the fittings stats of logi suits are not now reduced, the 2nd problem becomes so much worse. Logis will be able to anything they want (except for 2 weapons). The logi slayer problem will be out of control with them now able to fit not only proto equipment but totally fill their slots with complex mods and a proto weapon too. And that whole thing about the cloak not being able to be fitted on anything but scouts without totally gimping their fits - well, you can throw that out the window for logis because they'll be able to fit them fine (even if their fittings bonus doesn't apply to cloaks). I see by your signature you're a scout. Well I think you shouldn't be allowed to use 2 sidearms because that allows you more CPU/PG for mods. Oh and the assaults need a CPU/PG nerf because they can choose to not put a sidearm or grenades on their suit and fit a proto weapon on a standard suit. I'm sorry but did I miss it where every time a logi kills someone that player gets 2 deaths instead of one? All through this 1.7 I've consistently done better KDR wise with my lower SP Minmatar assault alt than my logi main. I've killed plenty of logis, does that mean they weren't slayer logis, because slayer logis are so OP they absolutely cannot be killed right!? If a logi gets a decent amount of kills they are a slayer logi and must be nerfed, if a logi goes 2 and 7 and tops the leader board then equipment needs a nerf and logis are scrubs who need better gun game. What is it you people want!? Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 822	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:05:00 - [3] - Quote Slen Kaleth wrote: Michael Arck wrote: I'm curious to know what defines a "slayerlogi" and what doesn't. Cause from what I've read, if a logi (god bless his soul) gets more than 2 kills leading up to the double digits, he is called a "slayerlogi". In which I don't understand because a medic is just as much as a mercenary next to Assault. It seems the title gets thrown around casually and the lines blur. The armor rep really wasn't a problem. From my viewpoint, it was necessary since the logi needs to sustain life longer to help assist his team and throw himself in harms way. The armor repair function within the suit was ideal. But, the people cried foul. And they answered. Loads of CPU/PG wasn't a problem either. It helped us logis to fulfill our roles, again. As a Logibro, cloaking isn't my style. I know and understand that is more for the scout based roles. Plus I'm logi, sneaking isn't what I do. I run across fields filled with bullet fire with yellow markings that scream "kill this logibro here", just to rep a heavy, drop a uplink or place down some ammo. I think its safe to say that people who uses items in a "FOTM" fashion, shouldn't be the factor in defining an entire skill class. While the PG/CPU before helped fill their role as logi, the new 25% suit bonus gets ride of the need for the extra PG/CPU. The only thing it allows now is for them to use fill their extra slots with more complex modules, instead of fitting equipment, to gain more of an advantage in combat than an assault who have less PG/CPU and fewer slots. Do you even logi!? First off, assault need less slots because you start off with higher base HP. Secondly, you're faster. Thirdly, assaults are getting the PG/CPU bonus to weapon fitting which will help me fit better mods for my assault. EHP is not the only advantages in the game. Sorry some people use logis solely to kill things, if they do it in 1.8 they are f*cking stupid and could slay much easier with a sentinel, commando, or yes even an assault. Sometimes when a logi kills you its not because he has some huge advantage over you its because he is better than you. If you are standing still and the logi is standing still and he has the same weapon and more EHP, yes he will kill you, but you are at fault for being the dumbass who isn't using his suits strengths. I do not slayer logi, I always have my equipment slots filled and this new logi bonus has given me absolutely nothing because I already play Gal Logi. Oh and if CCP doesn't do respecs I also have Amarr logi, and this "huge CPU/PG buff" will only allow me to switch my PG mod out for something else, probably another armor rep to make up for the loss of innate armor reps. If you don't play logi then STFU and talk about how to improve your suit don't bltch about my already nerfed suits Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 827	Posted - 2014.03.07 06:51:00 - [4] - Quote OK I was bored and ran some numbers, but don't expect some grand calculations but I compared a fully tanked Gallente logi to what I think its actual slayer equivalent is, the Gal commando and here's what I came up with: Looking at proto and assuming maxed skills for electronics and engineering and taking al complex armor plates and complex extenders. From my calculations, running 5 plates and 3 shield extenders the logi only has 166 CPU and 5 PG left for fitting everything other than high and low slots. The commando has 193 CPU and 6 PG left for everything. These are far from perfect comparisons but I think they help make the point that there are much better options for slaying. Gallente Logi = 1296 EHP, 4 m/s movement Gallente commando = 1330 EHP, 3.78 m/s movement So I think if people want to skill into a suit for an slightly faster commando suit with 1 weapon and bonuses completely useless for slaying let them. I'll take the reload bonus and extra 10% damage myself. Oh and a maxed out Gal assault would have 1220 EHP, 4.25 m/s movement but comes out at having 93 CPU and -6 PG so can't max out its tank so I guess its max EHP would be 1 enhanced extender instead of 4 complex so 1200 flat EHP Boiled down the great slayer logi advantage over assault is about 100 EHP THAT is it Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 830	Posted - 2014.03.07 08:28:00 - [5] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Ok, so the thread seems to have gotten a little off the point because of my one tiny reference to slayer logis - I've now removed said reference. My point is that logis do just fine at the moment. Their innate reps are being removed, which is good. Their new bonus means that they now need less CPU/PG to be just as effective as they are currently. Not reducing their CPU/PG means that they're getting a huge buff in CPU/PG. Not only will they be able to fit the exact same equipment as before but they will also be able to upgrade all their mod slots and weapon too. The game's most versatile suit has just become even more versatile! And like fitting a repper is suddenly going to even things out, when logis have so much fittings room to spare as it is. Look, all I'm asking is that the CPU/PG be reduced accordingly with the extra CPU/PG logis can potentially gain from their new bonus. It's not a nerf - it keeping them where they're at, which is very very good. And I'm telling you that the 25% fitting bonus is not some huge logi boon that requires CPU/PG nerf. Gallente logi already gets this bonus and still often requires a PG module when running decent uplinks or a scanner gods forbid you try to have both on a suit. I think the whole PG/CPU bonus means that logi can spend more ISK to equip better tiered equipment to be as effective as we currently are due to equipment nerfs. Have you fit out a proto logi with decent equipment in all it's slots? Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 843	Posted - 2014.03.07 20:20:00 - [6] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Zahle: Tell me - how much extra CPU and PG will your current suits now have? Would your suit be any worse off if you didn't have it? These are serious questions - I may be complaining now but I'm open to having my mind changed if it can be clearly and factually shown to me that logis will be no better off in 1.8. I'm at work so I can't look at the exact numbers. I can tell you that for both my logis PG is more the limiting factor than CPU. I think I have CPU left over for Gal logi, but I know I am using every last bit of PG. But here's my main proto logi fits. Please bear in mind I have light weapons to 5 and ScR optimization to level 4 which helps a bunch with squeezing the most out of my PG and CPU. I also ha ve core upgrades, electronics, and engineering all at level 5 like any logi should. Gal logi (the best model for 1.8 logis since it already had 25% equipment fitting bonus) High slot = 3 complex shield extenders Low slots = 1 complex armor repairer, 2 enhanced armor plates, 1 basic reactive plate, 1 basic plate Gun = Carthum AScR Grenade = M1 locus Equipment (default fit) = Allotek nanohive, Enhanced injector, BDR-8 triage rep tool, and Quamtum scanner (the advanced level one) I think I get about 900 EHP and armor rep at 12.25 currently. Its a really solid suit that runs I think around 230K ISK and provides decent equipment and fire support If I change my needle to proto and use Core rep tool the suit stays pretty much the same except I downgrade to the advanced ScR Amarr logi: High slots = 3 complex shield extenders Low slots = 1 complex armor rep, 2 enhanced armor plates, 1 enhanced PG module Guns = Carthum AScR + Proto flaylock Grenade = M1 locus Equipment = Allotek nanohive, Enhanced injector, BDR-8 triage rep tool With the 25% bonus I may be able to drop the PG module for a basic plate or likely I'd put a reactive of some sort in its place. So, IMO my suits are pretty much what the logi roll is supposed to be support while being able to aid in the gun game a little and survive while being that force mulitplier. My builds are scewed a litte bit more offensively with proto guns, but I do have suits where I drop the gun power for better equipment. So if we have our CPU and PG reduced I will have to either sacrifice tank which I'm essentially already kind of losing with loss of innate armor reps or I am now only able to be advanced weapon with advanced equipment or standard level weaponry with proto equipment. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 844	Posted - 2014.03.07 21:08:00 - [7] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Django Quik wrote: There have been 2 problems with logis up to now: 1) Innate armor reps 2) Loads of CPU and PG I disagree, sort of. The main problem, I would say, is the fact that logis have more module slots than any other suit. The points you mention are, however, related to this since they can be said to give extra slots compared to, say, assaults (one less repper, no/fewer fitting mods required). They should just buff the the base stats of logis so they are on par with assaults, and then remove a slot or two. Maybe that's what they meant to do but didn't have time? ;) While I wouldn't have a problem with your change, except for the Cal logi (which gets 2) the logi suits only get 1 more module than their corresponding assault. So I can't agree that tinkering with logi vs assault is the best use of CCP's balancing time. On another note, sorry to all, especially the OP if I flipped out a little with my posts in this thread last night. I get defensive of the logi suit as I've used it from the first minute I got into the closed beta up to and including now and I still will at least a little in 1.8 Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.