DUST Search - The Real Reason Tanks Are Hard To Kill

Sole Fenychs wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Tanks should absolutely take multiple people to kill. But they should require small turrets, and people to man them, in order to fend off infantry. I want large turrets to be kings of AV, and have tanks rely on small turrets for AP.

This sounds nice, but:
What is a tank good for, then?

Serious question. The baseline gameplay here is infantry. Infantry does everything.
Tanks can't do many of the things that infantry can (like hacking).

If you make the large turrets AV only and require small turrets for AP, you are better off with just keeping to infantry gameplay, unless small turrets are highly OP.
You won't need a tank unless someone with a three-man tank crops up. And then you can just as well counter that thing with a three-man AV team or one of the large turrets that would actually exist unmolested in a game where tanks don't appear in every match.

People forget that killing is not the goal of the game. It's just a mean of achieving it.
Tanks can't achieve the goal. That's what their balance as one-man-armies is based on. They can't enter complexes and they can't stealthily cap CRUs behind enemy lines.

All my posts are respec posts (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ LockmeBro!

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Fish'o'war Turinna Immortal Guides 2	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:06:00 - [1] - Quote I was considering the reasons why I fail to kill a tank more than half of the times I attempt it, and something about the way EVE works occurred to me. In EVE, you have warp interdiction, preventing your foe from escaping when the know they can't win. In DUST, we usually don't kill tanks because they can run away and regenerate. What if we had a Stasis Grenade, or a Stasis Webifier Launcher? Make it have fairly limited ammunition, have a fair splash range, and be worth sacrificing a light damage or grenade slot for. It would deal a relatively small amount of damage, and it would snare infantry and tanks differently. Infantry are slowed by 25% and cannot regenerate stamina when caught in its effect. A tank's speed would be reduced by 50% or so and it would halt the cooldown of its active modules while active. Thoughts?
echo47 Minmatar Republic 214	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:28:00 - [2] - Quote Webbifiers would be terible in this game. You have to think about what counter would you have. Webs plus scanners would make the game impossible to play. I think a better solution for tanks would be a slow down effect based on the amount of armor left. Or equipment that causes the modules ot overheat faster. I would rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7937	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:47:00 - [3] - Quote NO NO MAGIC GRENADES! STATIS WEBIFIERS! They are beams of energy similar to the rep tool which hold/ nullify the momentum of objects. "War is not hell, far from it. War is beautiful. War is divine." - Grand Admiral Mekioth Sarum
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1830	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:59:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: NO NO MAGIC GRENADES! STATIS WEBIFIERS! They are beams of energy similar to the rep tool which hold/ nullify the momentum of objects. It's not magic, it's gravity. Silly Amarrians don't understand anything these days. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Fish'o'war Turinna Immortal Guides 3	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:19:00 - [5] - Quote echo47 wrote: Webbifiers would be terible in this game. You have to think about what counter would you have. Webs plus scanners would make the game impossible to play. I think a better solution for tanks would be a slow down effect based on the amount of armor left. Or equipment that causes the modules ot overheat faster. You have a point, for sure. That's why I was suggesting it be a light weapon with limited ammo. You have to sacrifice quite a big of tactical versatility in order to use one.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines 511	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:29:00 - [6] - Quote Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: I was considering the reasons why I fail to kill a tank more than half of the times I attempt it, and something about the way EVE works occurred to me. In EVE, you have warp interdiction, preventing your foe from escaping when the know they can't win. In DUST, we usually don't kill tanks because they can run away and regenerate. What if we had a Stasis Grenade, or a Stasis Webifier Launcher? Make it have fairly limited ammunition, have a fair splash range, and be worth sacrificing a light damage or grenade slot for. It would deal a relatively small amount of damage, and it would snare infantry and tanks differently. Infantry are slowed by 25% and cannot regenerate stamina when caught in its effect. A tank's speed would be reduced by 50% or so and it would halt the cooldown of its active modules while active. Thoughts? The only reason that tanks are hard to kill is their Hardeners => END.
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:42:00 - [7] - Quote it should just be an av grenade variant. slows tanks downs. the best way though would be to add and capacitors. make tankers learn cap management which will cut down the invulnerable scrub militia tanks and add ways to knock out cap. a short range rep tool that acts like an enery neut, and larger versions for other vehicles to drive up and drain him during combat. cap runs out tank is stuck and cant run modules
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 809	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:49:00 - [8] - Quote Slow tanks down by 25%, boost swarm speed to large missile speed. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1830	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:53:00 - [9] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: it should just be the av grenade. slows vehicles downs. fixed. Also, cap wouldn't work at all in Dust. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
ladwar Death by Disassociation Legacy Rising 2001	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:16:00 - [10] - Quote i see the problem with his statement, "fairly limited ammunition" grenade spam is high and yet they have "fairly limited ammunition" wanna know why? nano hives. refills everything but vehicles. some things should only be refilled by supply depots. or be super limited, anyone who played BF4 and knows about ucavs will understand how somethings can be stupid powerful just because of spam. Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?

Royalgiedro Nor Clan Combat Logistics 7	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:34:00 - [11] - Quote Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: I was considering the reasons why I fail to kill a tank more than half of the times I attempt it, and something about the way EVE works occurred to me. In EVE, you have warp interdiction, preventing your foe from escaping when the know they can't win. In DUST, we usually don't kill tanks because they can run away and regenerate. What if we had a Stasis Grenade, or a Stasis Webifier Launcher? Make it have fairly limited ammunition, have a fair splash range, and be worth sacrificing a light damage or grenade slot for. It would deal a relatively small amount of damage, and it would snare infantry and tanks differently. Infantry are slowed by 25% and cannot regenerate stamina when caught in its effect. A tank's speed would be reduced by 50% or so and it would halt the cooldown of its active modules while active. Thoughts? tanks are fine as they are. I easily, while on the ground or in my rail tank, can kill 5-10 tanks per match. Use a forge gun or railgun.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1832	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:44:00 - [12] - Quote Royalgiedro wrote: Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: I was considering the reasons why I fail to kill a tank more than half of the times I attempt it, and something about the way EVE works occurred to me. In EVE, you have warp interdiction, preventing your foe from escaping when the know they can't win. In DUST, we usually don't kill tanks because they can run away and regenerate. What if we had a Stasis Grenade, or a Stasis Webifier Launcher? Make it have fairly limited ammunition, have a fair splash range, and be worth sacrificing a light damage or grenade slot for. It would deal a relatively small amount of damage, and it would snare infantry and tanks differently. Infantry are slowed by 25% and cannot regenerate stamina when caught in its effect. A tank's speed would be reduced by 50% or so and it would halt the cooldown of its active modules while active. Thoughts? tanks are fine as they are. I easily, while on the ground or in my rail tank, can kill 5-10 tanks per match. Use a forge gun or railgun. lolno 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
X7 lion SWAMPERIUM 133	Posted - 2014.03.07 04:03:00 - [13] - Quote Wana know the real reason tanks are hard to kill, LACK OF TEAM WORK!!!!!!! its a tank 9/10 you going to need more then one person to take it down & to do it efficiently takes at least 3 people (this is a decent tanker im talking about not just milita srubnaughts) people in general need to stop trying to be a one man army and start working together. I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me. You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 442	Posted - 2014.03.07 04:14:00 - [14] - Quote X7 lion wrote: people in general need to stop trying to be a one man army You mean like tankers?
jaksol returns highland marines IMMORTAL REGIME 11	Posted - 2014.03.07 08:26:00 - [15] - Quote Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: I was considering the reasons why I fail to kill a tank more than half of the times I attempt it, and something about the way EVE works occurred to me. In EVE, you have warp interdiction, preventing your foe from escaping when the know they can't win. In DUST, we usually don't kill tanks because they can run away and regenerate. What if we had a Stasis Grenade, or a Stasis Webifier Launcher? Make it have fairly limited ammunition, have a fair splash range, and be worth sacrificing a light damage or grenade slot for. It would deal a relatively small amount of damage, and it would snare infantry and tanks differently. Infantry are slowed by 25% and cannot regenerate stamina when caught in its effect. A tank's speed would be reduced by 50% or so and it would halt the cooldown of its active modules while active. Thoughts? I don't know what your talking about my tanks die all the time and iv invested sp into it, and infantry stoping a tank from running away? we did not use to have to run away we use to have fast health regen boosters, also are you out of your mind? your not suppost to take a tank on by your-self and win, you have to communicate and work with your squad or team. Sacrifice is a choice you make, Loss is a choice made for you .
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 442	Posted - 2014.03.07 09:25:00 - [16] - Quote jaksol returns wrote: your not suppost to take a tank on by your-self and win, you have to communicate and work with your squad or team. You're not supposed to be able to operate a tank by yourself either. Most tanks require a crew of at least four (commander, driver, gunner, loader). If tanks in Dust are advanced enough to be operated by a single person, then AV weapons can be advanced enough for one person to pose a threat to them.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 812	Posted - 2014.03.07 10:15:00 - [17] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: jaksol returns wrote: your not suppost to take a tank on by your-self and win, you have to communicate and work with your squad or team. You're not supposed to be able to operate a tank by yourself either. Most tanks require a crew of at least four (commander, driver, gunner, loader). If tanks in Dust are advanced enough to be operated by a single person, then AV weapons can be advanced enough for one person to pose a threat to them. Tanks should absolutely take multiple people to kill. But they should require small turrets, and people to man them, in order to fend off infantry. I want large turrets to be kings of AV, and have tanks rely on small turrets for AP. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 657	Posted - 2014.03.07 10:43:00 - [18] - Quote Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: echo47 wrote: Webbifiers would be terible in this game. You have to think about what counter would you have. Webs plus scanners would make the game impossible to play. I think a better solution for tanks would be a slow down effect based on the amount of armor left. Or equipment that causes the modules ot overheat faster. You have a point, for sure. That's why I was suggesting it be a light weapon with limited ammo. You have to sacrifice quite a big of tactical versatility in order to use one. The funny thing is we already have something similar with dropsuits, your suit gets slowed down as long as you are taking incoming fire...
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1005	Posted - 2014.03.07 10:54:00 - [19] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: You're not supposed to be able to operate a tank by yourself either. Most tanks require a crew of at least four (commander, driver, gunner, loader). If tanks in Dust are advanced enough to be operated by a single person, then AV weapons can be advanced enough for one person to pose a threat to them. Yes, but in real life the tank commander can shoot the Blue Berry in his empty head and kick his useless hide out into the Dust below his tank. He won't lose his tank because some scrub or griefer has jumped into a small turret and prevents him from calling in a tank that fits the changing battlefield conditions. I didn't run small turrets in the beginning of 1.7 because they are not worth it. The SP cost is IDENTICAL to large turret SP and they produce not only meager damage but open the tank up to Blue Belles that know nothing about tanking. And they never have a mic. Ever. Before 1.7 20-30% of my tank losses were Blue Belle caused. I am glad they are gone, they are worthless. And so it goes.
Gabriel Ceja Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 2	Posted - 2014.03.07 10:54:00 - [20] - Quote Click on the link to take a look at a possible solution for this that is fair, reasonable, and simpler. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1858385#post1858385 My tank is my dropsuit, it's kinda like your dropsuit...umm Only bigger, but just a little. :)

TheEnd762 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 443	Posted - 2014.03.07 10:58:00 - [21] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: ]Yes, but in real life the tank commander can shoot the Blue Berry in his empty head and kick his useless hide out into the Dust below his tank. He won't lose his tank because some scrub or griefer has jumped into a small turret and prevents him from calling in a tank that fits the changing battlefield conditions. I didn't run small turrets in the beginning of 1.7 because they are not worth it. The SP cost is IDENTICAL to large turret SP and they produce not only meager damage but open the tank up to Blue Belles that know nothing about tanking. And they never have a mic. Ever. Before 1.7 20-30% of my tank losses were Blue Belle caused. I am glad they are gone, they are worthless. I didn't say anything about "real life", but your point is well taken. You can rely on groups of blueberries to coordinate and properly operate a tank. And you can't rely on them to coordinate to effectively take down a tank either.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1005	Posted - 2014.03.07 11:02:00 - [22] - Quote Fish'o'war Turinna wrote: ... blah blah blah EVE blah blah blah EVE blah blah blah ... Pod People must play EVE. It is a great game. It has Meta levels. It has some webinizing thingies of crap that stick to a stinking star ship! Can you seriously say that without laughing and falling on your butt? A webilizer that prevents warp bubbles. Look at the physics, even the pretend and obviously overly stupid version of physics used in EVE and the entire conversation is just plain wrong. Dust is on the Ground. And EVE is filled with magic bunnies floating among the stars and the bongs and fueled by a billion mouse clicks. You don't have a Push To Win button that works on tanks. Get a tank. That works, very well. Don't like that. Use a squad. Worst thing for a tanker is a squad of AVs with mics and knowing what they are doing. Luckily for us, those are few and far between. Those were my thoughts, as requested. And so it goes.
Western Ways Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2014.03.07 11:26:00 - [23] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: It's not magic, it's gravity. Silly Amarrians don't understand anything these days. lol what do you expect from religious zealots? These are the same people that think of algebra as "Some kind of fuzzy math where they replace the numbers with letters".
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 87	Posted - 2014.03.07 11:53:00 - [24] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: True Adamance wrote: NO NO MAGIC GRENADES! STATIS WEBIFIERS! They are beams of energy similar to the rep tool which hold/ nullify the momentum of objects. It's not magic, it's gravity. Silly Amarrians don't understand anything these days. since when have they ever understood anything? their empress does all their thinking for them Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
Fish'o'war Turinna Immortal Guides 3	Posted - 2014.03.07 12:48:00 - [25] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: You don't have a Push To Win button that works on tanks. Get a tank. That works, very well. Don't like that. Use a squad. Worst thing for a tanker is a squad of AVs with mics and knowing what they are doing. Luckily for us, those are few and far between. In many cases, even when there are several people attempting to take down a tank, it simply retreats and its 4 friends come and save it. A webifier weapon would not be very effective if you were using it alone, but you would make an AV group even more effective. Getting a tank when there is already 3-5 enemy tanks watching you is near impossible.
Emperor1349 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 27	Posted - 2014.03.07 13:30:00 - [26] - Quote Speed needs to decrease when the tank is under 15% armor, on fire but doing top speed. But webs would be useful, even vehicle module ones, and variations of av grenades for slowing or stopping for them a few seconds. I'd like to see vehicle vs vehicle with these kind of tools R.I.P Mag - SVER
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 471	Posted - 2014.03.07 13:53:00 - [27] - Quote what about a stasis beam possibly a sidearm ? it would have a fairly small pg/cpu it would shoot out a constant beam it has free fire and if you aim it tries to lock on like a rep tool it would have an overheat mechanic, but can still fire for decent time usable on vehicle and infantry std -35% speed adv - 50% speed pro -65% speed the beams would apply separately so i hit a tank with adv its now at 50% speed then my buddy does to so 50% of his current speed brings it to 25 of its original Proud Christian Free stuff for the next account you make:)
X7 lion SWAMPERIUM 134	Posted - 2014.03.07 15:37:00 - [28] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: X7 lion wrote: people in general need to stop trying to be a one man army You mean like tankers? ITS A ******* TANK, in a perfect game world id want multiple people need to operate the tank but the game isnt big enough to have guys running a tank like that. I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me. You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 228	Posted - 2014.03.07 15:47:00 - [29] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Tanks should absolutely take multiple people to kill. But they should require small turrets, and people to man them, in order to fend off infantry. I want large turrets to be kings of AV, and have tanks rely on small turrets for AP. This sounds nice, but: What is a tank good for, then? Serious question. The baseline gameplay here is infantry. Infantry does everything. Tanks can't do many of the things that infantry can (like hacking). If you make the large turrets AV only and require small turrets for AP, you are better off with just keeping to infantry gameplay, unless small turrets are highly OP. You won't need a tank unless someone with a three-man tank crops up. And then you can just as well counter that thing with a three-man AV team or one of the large turrets that would actually exist unmolested in a game where tanks don't appear in every match. People forget that killing is not the goal of the game. It's just a mean of achieving it. Tanks can't achieve the goal. That's what their balance as one-man-armies is based on. They can't enter complexes and they can't stealthily cap CRUs behind enemy lines.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1478	Posted - 2014.03.07 16:08:00 - [30] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Tanks should absolutely take multiple people to kill. But they should require small turrets, and people to man them, in order to fend off infantry. I want large turrets to be kings of AV, and have tanks rely on small turrets for AP. This sounds nice, but: What is a tank good for, then? Serious question. The baseline gameplay here is infantry. Infantry does everything. Tanks can't do many of the things that infantry can (like hacking). If you make the large turrets AV only and require small turrets for AP, you are better off with just keeping to infantry gameplay, unless small turrets are highly OP. You won't need a tank unless someone with a three-man tank crops up. And then you can just as well counter that thing with a three-man AV team or one of the large turrets that would actually exist unmolested in a game where tanks don't appear in every match. People forget that killing is not the goal of the game. It's just a mean of achieving it. Tanks can't achieve the goal. That's what their balance as one-man-armies is based on. They can't enter complexes and they can't stealthily cap CRUs behind enemy lines. Right now, they can achieve that goal. Every map has null cannons where tankers can literally stick their blaster right next to the hack console and just f--king sit there. Either map design needs to change or tanks need to GTFO anti-infantry or one person needs to be able to solo a tank using appropriate AV weaponry. One of the three. Respec in 1.8 due to huge battlefield role shift for MinLogi! All my posts are respec posts (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ LockmeBro!



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