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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1532
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Posted - 2014.03.05 17:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
So after the weapon nerfs I need to get 3 things out of the way
1. 3/4/5 for damage mods is a little drastic, considering both proficiencies and base damage were nerfed. 2/4/6 or 3/5/7 would have been fine, the stacking penalty would have done enough.
2. The Mass driver buff, even as someone specced into mass drivers, is unnecessary, the rifle nerf was enough to make it more viable. The damage was never it's niche it was the splash radius, and if anything was to be buffed it should have been that. I don't see it being FOTM again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
3. AV vs. Vehicles...... all you've done is make AV nades harder to use, other than that it's still the elephant in the room.
On to the main topic shields versus armor. Before the armor buff, armor afforded little extra HP over shields, it slowed people down massively, and still required other means of regeneration. So when the buff was put into place like every other "rebalance" it went too far trying to change too many things at once. Armor dwarfed shields, led to high slot being used for damage mods, and ushered in the age of the CR and RR. So let me start as to why not balancing armor and shields affects everything.
The new shield damage based proficiency on blaster and laser tech will be inferior to the projectile and rail bonus to armor as long as there is more armor than shields overall. The AR already has a problem with it's shorter range, and the PLC still doesn't have the damage to counter it's entire setup. Losing the ability to do more damage to the majority of HP puts them further behind. The Ion pistol similarly will be the inferior sidearm as it has low enough base damage as is, low range, and can only improve damage against shields while most side arms face against armor. Lasers rifles are getting a buff (no solid numbers yet) and Scrambler weapons have bonuses to headshots, but they face the similar problems.
So now that damage mods have been nerfed, that removes any hope that blasters and lasers will effectively be able to take care of an enemies armor. Inversely the low shield HP environment means that rails and projectiles have less to worry about when getting through their weapons weaker target. I could run circles around this, but effectively it's become a game of Armor is where the HP is, CR and RR are the counter to armor, you can never stack enough shields to counter CR and RRs so shield based weaponry will never be as effective.
So taking into account the past imbalance between armor and shield, it is obvious why we were brought here. Shields regen faster, require no external module or equipment, but have lower base numbers for mods. Armor has higher base HP for mods, but slower regen, and a speed penalty. Another balancing factor when it can to balance was shields would not recharge while taking damage, armor regen is constant. So if armor is supposed to trade regen for higher HP, why are the base HP of every suit (excluding Amarr and Min) equal? Without modules shield based damage is fairly equal, but the way modules are set up, it's much easier to stack armor HP than shields and much more useful. The Caldari are supposed to be shield tankers, not necessarily tied to it, but the fact that they brick tank is an indicator that purely shield tanking is inferior to purely armor tanking, and the slot set up of the Cal Logi needs to be reworked.
I'd like to see one or two of these changes:
A reduction in armor mod HP, the basic armor plate offers more than a complex shield extender, in both HP and especially fitting space. The previous speed penalty for armor made it unbearable, but there has to be some sort of counter or alternative to promote shield tanking in those with more high slots. I like the idea of lower the amount of HP that can be added to help bring lower and higher tiered suits closer together without eliminating their advantage. Higher TTK brings back the problem of medium suits taking two clips to kill by lower tier weapons. I'm all for upgrading, but if a new player with good aim needs two clips to take out an assault or logi it just reinforces gear over player ability.
We need better tiered shields. Basic and enhanced shield extenders are a waist of a slot unless the user is trying to save CPU/PG , 44/55/66 or 44/66/88 would make them far more desirable. Armor would still be superior in raw HP, but limited by the need for regen.
Make weapon proficiencies not purely armor or shields. For blasters and lasers 2% towards shields 1% towards armor per level, and projectiles and rail 2% towards armor 1% towards shields per level. This makes the proficiencies still effective, but not overpowering towards one damage type.
Little Red Button (only press in case of emergency): Raise base armor HP of every suit, increase base shield recharge, make shield based weapons more effective against armor. Keep the majority of HP in the Armor, and the majority of regen in the shields.
I just want every weapon and suit to have a viable niche, and want most to be useful in competitive play. Without finding a way to balance shields and armor many weapons will remain less effective with current and proposed stats.
Where is my Gallente sidearm? 1.8? When is that? SoonGäó514
"No blue tags make Tallen go crazy."
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1539
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
I will not let you be buried under all the other QQ.
Ion pistol in 1.8? Really, is that it? When is that? SoonGäó514
"No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2830
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just double all the extenders
22/33/66 - 44/66/132
Intelligence is OP
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Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
480
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
good topic; though there has been 3-4 of these done within the last week w/ lots of idea/posts. I'd say search them up; as all of them answer and bring up propositions for change that you are looking for. To give you quick idea of something said:
- Buff shield extenders
- buff rechargers
- increase armor reps (little bit)
- reduce pg cost of extenders at proto
- add support shield equipment
Onto the damage mod change, was a bit to much; I'd of been happier seeing mods spit like the did proficiency, in making 2 types, armor and shield. People could then choose how want to setup weapons; though that could still be a problem.
The MD is probably gana be the the fotm starting in 1.8 . If you spec MD, and go Mini assault; your MD actually receive 2-3 buffs. Increased direct damage, splash damage, and an 83% mag damage increase. So don't be surprised to the Mini assault running MD, Flaylock w/ flux ; as be looking at 11 round MD's and 8 round flaylocks
There is a base idea of what was said. Best to go look over the topics for more details and #'s and example. Though as a .02; im one who still shield tanks and agree, shield is much weaker ... and I still plan to shield tank to stay away from the "fotm" of armor tanking
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
League of Infamy
661
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
I was expecting the proficiency change to actually work the other way; give a bonus to what the weapon is poor against. As it stands, something like the Laser Rifle will eat through shields in a second but be even worse against armor. Flipping it, you could make make your weapon all-around better. Of course, it would be be hard for projectile weapons with their -5%/+10%, would they be +10%/+10% or have the -5% reduced to -4.25%? Probably why it didn't happen.
Don't forget the fact that when Armor was buffed, Shields were nerfed by reducing the recharge of the users shields. Lowering movement reduction on armor, increasing HP of Armor, and nerfing the competing defensive array all in the same patch. 44/55/66 and possibly removing the penalty would go a long way to helping Shields. Right now it is a no brainer. For 1 Low Slot, I can get nearly 4 times the HP of a single High Slot. A Complex + Basic/Militia Shield Extender equals a Basic Armor Plate in HP but loses in fitting, isk cost, and opportunity cost of losing slots.
There is also the fact that Shields don't get as much supplementation as Armor. A Repair Tool will keep an Amarr/Gallente Sentinel alive for a long time but does almost nothing for a Caldari Sentinel; there is no Shield Energizing tool. My Basic Caldari Assault runs 2 basic plates because I know I can run across a Repair Tool, Supply Depot, or even use my own Compact Nanohive. Those two basic plates give me more HP than two and a half complex extenders and don't slow me down all that much.
Just looking at it, I don't see any major advantage over shield MODULES compared to armor MODULES. In theory, yes, Shields have a huge advantage in the idea of innate recharge but the modules themselves do not even come close to what armor can offer you. |
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
League of Infamy
661
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:
The MD is probably gana be the the fotm starting in 1.8 . If you spec MD, and go Mini assault; your MD actually receive 2-3 buffs. Increased direct damage, splash damage, and an 83% mag damage increase. So don't be surprised to the Mini assault running MD, Flaylock w/ flux ; as be looking at 11 round MD's and 8 round flaylocks
Supposedly, due to the buff to Mass Drivers, the +1 ammo capacity for explosives is going away. So only Combat Rifle and SMG will benefit. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10432
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'd just like to point out, to those people who are suggesting such drastic changes as double HP, that previously armour was widely held to be inferior when it had 20 HP less per plate and slightly higher speed penalties.
Doubling shield extender HP goes a hell of a lot further than that.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Delta90212
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
325
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Posted - 2014.03.05 18:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Berserker007 wrote:
The MD is probably gana be the the fotm starting in 1.8 . If you spec MD, and go Mini assault; your MD actually receive 2-3 buffs. Increased direct damage, splash damage, and an 83% mag damage increase. So don't be surprised to the Mini assault running MD, Flaylock w/ flux ; as be looking at 11 round MD's and 8 round flaylocks
Supposedly, due to the buff to Mass Drivers, the +1 ammo capacity for explosives is going away. So only Combat Rifle and SMG will benefit.
Nooooo! i will never have my 8 round flaylock...
Fear The Tribes // In Rust We Trust // Standings Minmatar 6 // Minmatar Logibro //
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