DUST Search - Prototype Suit Nerf? Discuss.

lee corwood wrote:

if you look at suit stats, there's not actually a large difference between the ADV to Proto. What gives the advantage is not the suit, but the modules you're able to place that give you an increased edge over others. Which of course increases the price tag exponentially. It's therefore not uncommon to see protos running together. A single proto is likely to get taken down very quickly if he's flanked properly or just out matched in numbers.

Given the cost of such things, you're going to see protos run in groups to keep their isk pool positive. Usually losing just one proto suit means you don't profit the whole match. Some corps are able to because:

A: they've been here forever and are sitting on millions of isk so why not run the best of the best
B: they have their planets locked and timers set so that they literally are rolling in never ending isk. these corps have money and then some.

That being said, I don't see anything wrong with groups of people. I like teamwork. What you want is tiercide as another stated. Which is tiers of divisions that pool players of similar skill level together. The reason this isn't possible today is because the NPE is so awful, our player count isn't growing very quickly, our current user base is angry and leaving and thus we just don't have enough people playing to tier.

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Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote Before you read, use that thing called a brain and don't scream "QQ thread, get good, so butthurt, etc." just because you think it makes you look cool. Saying that crap does the opposite. I'd like an intelligent discussion, so if you're incapable of that, click the Last Page button. I think the majority of us can agree that there's a huge gap between ADV and PRO. Not to say that a PRO suit makes you invincible, but when 6+ people are running full PRO, it's not that fun to fight or fight with. And that's the exact problem: I never see just one PRO suit, it's always three or more. I mean sure, I'll take on a PRO suit any day, but when there's three of them that shoot me down before I can get close to taking down one, it's a bit unfair. I am not in any way bashing teamwork, I'm bashing the inability to take it down even with my own teamwork. Having good aim means nothing. Approaching carefully means nothing. If I snipe them, they either hide or get revived. If I get a Blaster tank, they pull out three Railgun tanks. I could leave the battle, but I would prefer not having a battle that needs leaving. I don't hate them personally, but this game needs to be less geared towards the teamplaying veterans. The solution could be to reduce the PG/CPU of PRO suits. Although with the many nerfs coming, these teams might become less undefeatable. Who knows. I'm just asking for a chance to accomplish something when these guys show up. Or have a challenge when I fight with them. There's more to this game than the veterans who stomp everything, is what I'd like people to realize. I can't "get good" when I'm constantly being kicked while I'm down. TL;DR Nope. Read it. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Andrew Kisama Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:09:00 - [2] - Quote WITHOUT READING THIS I CAN SAY I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU!!!!!11111!! (JK) But seriously, I think teamwork is the major factor here, my and my rag tag squad of randoms can take down protos that are solo, but it becomes a real challenge when you have skill+ uber suits. then it gets a little unfair. the person who has played longer to afford better skills and gear wins over the newer players, regardless of actuall fps skill, not to be confused with the time played in the game.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 2989	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:10:00 - [3] - Quote Matchmaking is admitted to be in terrible shape with fixes "in the works". PvE is the common answer to the woes of lower meta level fitting userd, and its state is currently unknown. I GÖú Kittens.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1904	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:10:00 - [4] - Quote Walks From the Shadows Whispers Tiericide Walks Back into Shadow Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:12:00 - [5] - Quote Andrew Kisama wrote: WITHOUT READING THIS I CAN SAY I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU!!!!!11111!! But seriously, I think teamwork is the major factor here, my and my rag tag squad of randoms can take down protos that are solo, but it becomes a real challenge when you have skill+ uber suits. then it gets a little unfair. the person who has played longer to afford better skills and gear wins over the newer players, regardless of actuall fps skill, not to be confused with the time played in the game. I'm confused, you said you disagreed and then said things I agree with? Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Heimdallr69 Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1762	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:12:00 - [6] - Quote Can I have my sp back? If not then hell no. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:13:00 - [7] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Walks From the Shadows Whispers Tiericide Walks Back into Shadow Please explain the word "Tiericide", as I've never had it explained to me. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Croned 624	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:13:00 - [8] - Quote If Dust had a large player base, we could allow people to choose whether they want to join a game with proto enabled/disabled. Son of a plasma cannon! TTK of the Weapons
Andrew Kisama Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:14:00 - [9] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Andrew Kisama wrote: WITHOUT READING THIS I CAN SAY I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU!!!!!11111!! But seriously, I think teamwork is the major factor here, my and my rag tag squad of randoms can take down protos that are solo, but it becomes a real challenge when you have skill+ uber suits. then it gets a little unfair. the person who has played longer to afford better skills and gear wins over the newer players, regardless of actuall fps skill, not to be confused with the time played in the game. I'm confused, you said you disagreed and then said things I agree with? I was just joking =P anticipating those kind of replies =o
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1887	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:15:00 - [10] - Quote First, +1 for your TLDR. Sergeant Sazu wrote: And that's the exact problem: I never see just one PRO suit, it's always three or more. Let me devil's advocate: Proto suits only offer a marginal increase in effectiveness over ADV, for an exponential cost increase. The reason you only see them in threes or more is because those are relatively skilled people, whipping out their proto stuff because they're confident they won't die that often. You get your ass kicked by the skill, not the equipment. On a side note: The only class that gets a big proto improvement bump is logistics, where they get 3-4 more slots to use over ADV. Heavies, Scouts, Assaults, get 1-2 more slots for Proto. When you see proto suits regularly, you are much, much more likely to be seeing proto logis than anything else. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]

Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1428	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:15:00 - [11] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Walks From the Shadows Whispers Tiericide Walks Back into Shadow I agree with the voices in my head. Now, let me sit here and drink my bottle of Coca-Cola inconspicuously near this dark hallway.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4482	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:16:00 - [12] - Quote No. As for Proto Stompers, a shotgun scout with two enhanced dampeners will ruin their day 9/10 Times. When fighting proto players, you don't rush them, you flank from behind and take out their Logi's first. Anybody you don't kill with an explosive you shoot till their body is grey, this means they can't revive. After 2-3 deaths each, they will stop running proto. Just a matter of changing tactics. No nerf is needed. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:18:00 - [13] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: No. As for Proto Stompers, a shotgun scout with two enhanced dampeners will ruin their day 9/10 Times. When fighting proto players, you don't rush them, you flank from behind and take out their Logi's first. Anybody you don't kill with an explosive you shoot till their body is grey, this means they can't revive. After 2-3 deaths each, they will stop running proto. Just a matter of changing tactics. No nerf is needed. Thanks, I will try this. The scanners are what always thwart my approach, I never really thought of Dampeners. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1380	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:20:00 - [14] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: The only class that gets a big proto improvement bump is logistics, where they get 3-4 more slots to use over ADV. Heavies, Scouts, Assaults, get 1-2 more slots for Proto. When you see proto suits regularly, you are much, much more likely to be seeing proto logis than anything else. While it's true that logis see a bigger benefit, the PG/CPU increases are also a major factor, as it allows the use of mostly complex modules. This is particularly true in terms of shield extenders and damage mods, as well as pretty much every non-armor low slot module, where a complex module provides double the effectiveness per slot compared to enhanced modules, and often at a fitting cost benefit over using two enhanced modules.
DJINN Marauder Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4378	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:23:00 - [15] - Quote "QQ harder scrub " GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 5 \| Warframe is awesome! \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 461	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:27:00 - [16] - Quote honestly the problem lies in who can afford to use them. the only ones who can afford them as their daily fits are 1 people good enough to not die with them 2 pc players so 1 their already good so that just makes it seem worse than reality 2 their usually chumps that i kill anyways so yep thats it Proud Christian add p2p already!
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2148	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:28:00 - [17] - Quote Eh, no nerfing the suits won't make it any better. If 3+ people run in a tightly packed plc squad with flay locks for back up, they would still tear up more than their fair share of blueberries. When it comes to pubstomping its less the fact that its proto more the fact that its 1) Strength in Numbers 2) FOTM Spam 3) Wolfpack squad actually communicating This is why a performance based matchmaking system is required for High Sec public matches. So if you are a lone wolf who goes about his thing, you'll come across small squads who play wider fields and other lone wolfers. So if you are the bluest blueberry to ever exsist you problem won't see proto till you become a man So if you like to run in tightly packed squads or like to put entire squads to shame with a Scrambler Pistol and a nanohive then those are the people you will fight against. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 461	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:29:00 - [18] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Walks From the Shadows Whispers Tiericide Walks Back into Shadow Please explain the word "Tiericide", as I've never had it explained to me. it means get rid of all tiers no more mlt std adv or pro just 1 type level of suits Proud Christian add p2p already!
Scheneighnay McBob Learning Coalition College 4201	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:30:00 - [19] - Quote It's not the suit, it's that they always appear in groups of 6 I am your scan error.
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:31:00 - [20] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Sergeant Sazu wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Walks From the Shadows Whispers Tiericide Walks Back into Shadow Please explain the word "Tiericide", as I've never had it explained to me. it means get rid of all tiers no more mlt std adv or pro just 1 type level of suits Thanks for explaining that, but... Wouldn't eliminating tiers kill the point of Dust? I think tiers should be a little closer together, if you get what I'm saying. But not eliminated. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.

lee corwood Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 536	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:33:00 - [21] - Quote if you look at suit stats, there's not actually a large difference between the ADV to Proto. What gives the advantage is not the suit, but the modules you're able to place that give you an increased edge over others. Which of course increases the price tag exponentially. It's therefore not uncommon to see protos running together. A single proto is likely to get taken down very quickly if he's flanked properly or just out matched in numbers. Given the cost of such things, you're going to see protos run in groups to keep their isk pool positive. Usually losing just one proto suit means you don't profit the whole match. Some corps are able to because: A: they've been here forever and are sitting on millions of isk so why not run the best of the best B: they have their planets locked and timers set so that they literally are rolling in never ending isk. these corps have money and then some. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with groups of people. I like teamwork. What you want is tiercide as another stated. Which is tiers of divisions that pool players of similar skill level together. The reason this isn't possible today is because the NPE is so awful, our player count isn't growing very quickly, our current user base is angry and leaving and thus we just don't have enough people playing to tier. Minmatar Logisis \| Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 628	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:38:00 - [22] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: No. As for Proto Stompers, a shotgun scout with two enhanced dampeners will ruin their day 9/10 Times. When fighting proto players, you don't rush them, you flank from behind and take out their Logi's first. Anybody you don't kill with an explosive you shoot till their body is grey, this means they can't revive. After 2-3 deaths each, they will stop running proto. Just a matter of changing tactics. No nerf is needed. Thanks, I will try this. The scanners are what always thwart my approach, I never really thought of Dampeners. You'll get a kill or two that way, then the good squads will become wise to your game and watch their flanks/rear with their eyes rather than their scanners -- I know I do. IMO, the four answers to coordinated proto squads are (a) run proto yourself, (b) outnumber them with lower-tier suits, (c) a well placed orbital, or (d) go somewhere in the map they are not (tough in domination, but feasible in the other game modes).
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:38:00 - [23] - Quote lee corwood wrote: if you look at suit stats, there's not actually a large difference between the ADV to Proto. What gives the advantage is not the suit, but the modules you're able to place that give you an increased edge over others. Which of course increases the price tag exponentially. It's therefore not uncommon to see protos running together. A single proto is likely to get taken down very quickly if he's flanked properly or just out matched in numbers. Given the cost of such things, you're going to see protos run in groups to keep their isk pool positive. Usually losing just one proto suit means you don't profit the whole match. Some corps are able to because: A: they've been here forever and are sitting on millions of isk so why not run the best of the best B: they have their planets locked and timers set so that they literally are rolling in never ending isk. these corps have money and then some. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with groups of people. I like teamwork. What you want is tiercide as another stated. Which is tiers of divisions that pool players of similar skill level together. The reason this isn't possible today is because the NPE is so awful, our player count isn't growing very quickly, our current user base is angry and leaving and thus we just don't have enough people playing to tier. You make good points up until you say that I want tiericide. I'd like the tiers closer together in capabilities, sure. This would make the game more skill and strategy oriented. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Sergeant Sazu KILL ORDERS 11	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:43:00 - [24] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Sergeant Sazu wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: No. As for Proto Stompers, a shotgun scout with two enhanced dampeners will ruin their day 9/10 Times. When fighting proto players, you don't rush them, you flank from behind and take out their Logi's first. Anybody you don't kill with an explosive you shoot till their body is grey, this means they can't revive. After 2-3 deaths each, they will stop running proto. Just a matter of changing tactics. No nerf is needed. Thanks, I will try this. The scanners are what always thwart my approach, I never really thought of Dampeners. You'll get a kill or two that way, then the good squads will become wise to your game and watch their flanks/rear with their eyes rather than their scanners -- I know I do. IMO, the three answers to coordinated proto squads are (a) run proto yourself, (b) outnumber them with lower-tier suits, or (c) a well placed orbital. True, any solution will be short-lived. Though I do get satisfaction from an orbital on all of them. Unfortunately, I don't have the SP or ISK to run Proto, I can only use the very few I got from the loyalty store. Stacked Shield Rechargers and Armor Repairers. Ready for another fight in 10 seconds.
Heimdallr69 Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1762	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:45:00 - [25] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: "QQ harder scrub " We need to talk. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Oswald Rehnquist 1267	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:45:00 - [26] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: First, +1 for your TLDR. Sergeant Sazu wrote: And that's the exact problem: I never see just one PRO suit, it's always three or more. Let me devil's advocate: Proto suits only offer a marginal increase in effectiveness over ADV. This actually is not true (admittedly I haven't done this with every suit) but for example the gap between caldari scout from std to advance is smaller than the gap between adv to proto Cal Scout cpu/pg Std-Adv= 39%/39% Adv-Pro= 43%/43% That isn't a marginal increase Below 28 dB
safura trotsky Kill Mode Activated Galactic Skyfleet Empire 20	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:50:00 - [27] - Quote the gap between adv and proto isn't huge... what? Thanks for picking me up blueberry!...and again...and again...STAHP!!!
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1556	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:04:00 - [28] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: First, +1 for your TLDR. Sergeant Sazu wrote: And that's the exact problem: I never see just one PRO suit, it's always three or more. Let me devil's advocate: Proto suits only offer a marginal increase in effectiveness over ADV, for an exponential cost increase. The reason you only see them in threes or more is because those are relatively skilled people, whipping out their proto stuff because they're confident they won't die that often. You get your ass kicked by the skill, not the equipment. On a side note: The only class that gets a big proto improvement bump is logistics, where they get 3-4 more slots to use over ADV. Heavies, Scouts, Assaults, get 1-2 more slots for Proto. When you see proto suits regularly, you are much, much more likely to be seeing proto logis than anything else. ***, you're playing devils advocate and all I see is a well reasoned counterpoint. do you know how this make me look? ... like a devil worshiper I completely agree, proto suits aren't that much better than advanced variants. my main is an adv scout and I do fine with it. when I'm running solo I use it 99% of the time because it's a good general purpose suit. but when I'm squaded I very seldomly use it. why? you just said it is a good general purpose suit wouldn't you want that? it's not my best suit, in a squad I can count on my team to have a needle and to watch my back(more often I'm watching their back but such is the way of a scout). my death count falls to the point that anything but my best is inefficient. in a squad I have no reason not to run proto. teamwork is OP. GÇ£Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I am dampened.GÇ¥* Ko6 scout,
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1824	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:14:00 - [29] - Quote I'd rather remove them all together. Tiercide FTW 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1820	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:33:00 - [30] - Quote Split up the battles by sec stat and then have the security status dictate what fits can come into battle. Add all the equipped modules, weapons and equipment meta numbers together plus the suit and call that the total meta of the suit. Have low meta totals for high sec and high meta number for low. It creates a noobs training area, testing area and gives more of a sandbox feel. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke

The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1820	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:42:00 - [31] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I'd rather remove them all together. Tiercide FTW The problem with that is there is less content then and we need more not less. The sec stat of the district should control what teir gear is used. Stops proto stomps, gives noobs and scrubs a place to go and probably would help make the game seem more balanced because the people you are fighting would have a similar level of gear. Player skill would matter more, SP placement and suit fits would mean more. I wrote out the numbers but of course it is too long for most to read. Matchmaking doesn't work because of the numbers of players we have so what does it matter about matchmaking? "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Soldier Sorajord Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 139	Posted - 2014.03.05 02:11:00 - [32] - Quote Now here's the real problem. Look at your green and blueberries. What grade is their suit? Probably militia. I guarantee you if everybody ran proto, you'd have a fun fight. Get your squad to run all proto, and fight back at those guys! Lead them blue dots! And the victories will pour in :) Click Here to set up a Character that will get an AR, SMG, and a Caldari BPO


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