DUST Search - The Battle of Vak'Atioth

Denak Kalamari wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

Look at CONCORD.
Those ships pack a punch, the frigates instantly warp in and lock you down with heavy fire, and if you survive for long enough, they bring in a battlecruiser who's cannon can... insta kill a titan.

That's right, a single shot to destroy a titan, from a battlecruiser.

Where did you get that from? Battlecruisers, even CONCORD, ones don't one-shot anything beyond a frigate or maybe a weak destoyer, just look at any CONCORDOKKEN video and see how long it takes for them to kill people. Cruisers last a few seconds, battlecruisers five and maybe the most tanked up battleships can last 10 or 20 seconds. Titans don't even count here, since you can't bring a Titan into CONCORD territory.

They don't really have as much firepower as they have powerful EWAR that makes your ship completely helpless to do anything while they rip your ship apart, they are at their weakest point here. In most cases, these ships would have hardeners, they'd be moving, they'd have reps or boosters to repair damage and maybe even have a friend remote repairing them, not to mention being able to actually shoot back and use EWAR on them, all of these increasing the ship's survivability significantly. With all these options out becuse you were neuted to hell, all ships are quite weak.

Even if they had a Battlecruiser that could instakill a titan, it didn't help much when a Thukker fleet assaulted Yulai, the CONCORD HQ and arguably the most heavily defended place in the cluster, destroyed them and crippled their rapid-response units. Then right at the start of the Battle for Caldari Prime, the Shiigeru titan used it's doomsday on a CONCORD battleship, killing it instantly.

It is also a false impression to say CONCORD ships are based on Jovian tech only, when in reality they're just a mix of all the empire's technology. CONCORD was originally formed by the fove empires to keep peace, and they've been given exclusive access to tech not available to capsuleers yet(but this tech is not exclusively Jovian based) which gave them their power against individual targets, but not so much against fleets. Thukker won against them. Heck, even a group of capsuleers managed to kill a CONCORD battlecruiser once. In reality, the only reason CONCORD still exists is because it benefits all the empires.

As for the original topic, my side is leaning towards Amarr, but I'm too tired to explain my point after that.


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Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1831	Posted - 2014.02.26 12:05:00 - [1] - Quote I've been seeing this battle used as evidence as to why the Amarr are somehow 'inferior'. The battle was a catastrophic loss for the Amarr. There is no denying that. No Amarr survived the battle for long; those that escaped were executed for failure. However, that the Amarr lost any significant proportion of their military might is entirely incorrect. The Amarr are possessed of the largest military in New Eden, and, as True Adamance likes to point out, it's never utilised more than 25% of its total power in a single engagement [citation needed] Quote: The Amarr Navy has almost twice as many ships as the next two empire navies put together Amarr Navy There's quite a bit of backstory, but essentially the Amarr, being the expansionistic persons that they are, were looking for a new source of 'indentured servants' (in quotes because everyone else will call them slaves) The Amarr sent a single squadron to attack the Jove, greatly underestimating the Jove's information-gathering network (and also the work of a filthy traitor) Quote: The Imperial Navy sent a single squadron, numbering roughly 200 ships, to open the war. - The Battle of Vak'Atioth ...Two hundred golden, gleaming hulls, gathered on the fringes of the VakGÇÖAtioth system. ...such a small force. - The Battle of Vak'Atioth (Chronicle) A small force, though nonetheless one that apparently required the use of what is considered by some the first Titan, (though the Jovian Mothership is a refitted vessel originally designed for a completely different purpose, many consider the Amarr's Imud Habrau the first true Titan) which would presumably have been a large proportion of the power of the fleets of the Jove. Had the Minmatar Rebellion not occured during the battle, it is almost a certainty that the Jove would not for long have escaped the collars of the Amarr, particularly considering the humiliation of the utter destruction visited on the Amarr squadron. Quote: The Empire was shocked by the complete loss to the Jove. It quickly regrouped and planned a second assault, using different tactics that would be capable of countering the Jove frigates... The Empire quickly turned its eyes on the Minmatar and entered into a hasty peace treaty with the Jove. The Amarr were unsuccessful in containing the Minmatar Rebellion, in part because of the morale blow suffered by the loss to the Jove. - Battle of Vak'Atioth TL;DR The Battle of Vak'Atioth is insignificant in the number of Amarr vessels lost, relative to the size and power of the Amarr Navy. Its significance is more that it was that the focus on the Jove meant that the Minmatar could successfully rebel and that the Jove have a significant intelligence-gathering arm. Two hundred years on, the Amarr military has a counter to the Motherships, where plausibly the Jove have not increased. Also, I found this while writing. Amarr Victor! Forge on for great justice! Defend the meek! Destroy the weak! Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2289	Posted - 2014.03.24 03:15:00 - [2] - Quote why is this still going i was just yelling at people in GD!!! ak.0 4 LYFE Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2289	Posted - 2014.03.24 03:27:00 - [3] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: why is this still going i was just yelling at people in GD!!! Also I'm pretty sure this is meticulously researched and all my claims are verifiable. i.e. if you happen to be arguing that the Jove's victory was significant in the scale of the loss, you better have some evidence, 'brochacho' (or whatever that thing is) New info from Dagger Two also indicated that the Amarr inflicted casualties across the Jovian fleet reducing their strength by 1/3 which considering their level of technology, the small fleet size, and much speculated upon Jovian assets...... I certainly would not consider an utter defeat. reread OP pl0x I said that already. ~~Meticulous amirite~~ EDIT: How embarrassing. Apparently I forgot to add that :( ak.0 4 LYFE Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2864	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:24:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: From the sounds of it, the Jovians had at most 30 ships in the batltle + that mothership. 10 ships for 200 doesn't sound too bad, considering the first one was a cheap shot at a frigate that's standing still lol Eighty :) ak.0 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak. I speak for the trees.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2872	Posted - 2014.04.22 04:07:00 - [5] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Look at CONCORD. Those ships pack a punch, the frigates instantly warp in and lock you down with heavy fire, and if you survive for long enough, they bring in a battlecruiser who's cannon can... insta kill a titan. That's right, a single shot to destroy a titan, from a battlecruiser. Where did you get that from? Battlecruisers, even CONCORD, ones don't one-shot anything beyond a frigate or maybe a weak destoyer, just look at any CONCORDOKKEN video and see how long it takes for them to kill people. Cruisers last a few seconds, battlecruisers five and maybe the most tanked up battleships can last 10 or 20 seconds. Titans don't even count here, since you can't bring a Titan into CONCORD territory. They don't really have as much firepower as they have powerful EWAR that makes your ship completely helpless to do anything while they rip your ship apart, they are at their weakest point here. In most cases, these ships would have hardeners, they'd be moving, they'd have reps or boosters to repair damage and maybe even have a friend remote repairing them, not to mention being able to actually shoot back and use EWAR on them, all of these increasing the ship's survivability significantly. With all these options out becuse you were neuted to hell, all ships are quite weak. Even if they had a Battlecruiser that could instakill a titan, it didn't help much when a Thukker fleet assaulted Yulai, the CONCORD HQ and arguably the most heavily defended place in the cluster, destroyed them and crippled their rapid-response units. Then right at the start of the Battle for Caldari Prime, the Shiigeru titan used it's doomsday on a CONCORD battleship, killing it instantly. It is also a false impression to say CONCORD ships are based on Jovian tech only, when in reality they're just a mix of all the empire's technology. CONCORD was originally formed by the fove empires to keep peace, and they've been given exclusive access to tech not available to capsuleers yet(but this tech is not exclusively Jovian based) which gave them their power against individual targets, but not so much against fleets. Thukker won against them. Heck, even a group of capsuleers managed to kill a CONCORD battlecruiser once. In reality, the only reason CONCORD still exists is because it benefits all the empires. As for the original topic, my side is leaning towards Amarr, but I'm too tired to explain my point after that. Such words! So logic! Wow! But seriously, the Jovian fleet was about 80 ships from memory, all frigates, all Capsuleers, all presumably higher tech. The strategy of the Jovians in this battle was to pin the Amarr using their traditional battle-line tactics (think ships of the line, men'o'war etc) and splat them with the doomsday from stupid distances. Which they did; half the Amarr fleet was destroyed, making it a catastrophic defeat (but not quite as total as some suggest, excepting that all the rest of the fleet were executed upon returning to Amarr space for their egregious failure). So the Jovians had all the advantages, which is to say technology, fleet composition and advance warning; the only advantage the Amarr had was numerical superiority. Which seemed to work out pretty well; the Jovians lost a full third of their fleet. Now. Some guesstimating will follow. The three Jovian Motherships were fitted for entirely different purposes; one war, one industry and one exploration (or so it's said). We can assume that the mothership was an extremely high-value asset, and was therefore supported by a significant portion of their military might. If this assumption is correct, it means the Jovian fleet is small and not so significantly advanced over empire technology that they're undefeatable. Which means that the Amarr, being possessed of an immense fleet , the likes of which exists in none of the other empires, would have utterly crushed the Jovians in the second offensive that was to follow. As I have said, the only reason the Jovians still exist (which they probably don't; I hear Sansha Kuvakei has basically sodomised them) is because the Minmatar rebelled against the Amarr. A rebellion which was only possible because of the stunned military at the Jovians actually having a military presence, and the mobilisations following such. Oh well. EDIT: Denak, I am simply expressing amusement at the wall'o'text you wrote :) woulda deleted it in my reply but smartphone says no :( ak.0 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak. I speak for the trees.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 3133	Posted - 2014.04.30 11:02:00 - [6] - Quote Hawk-eye Occultus wrote: da GAND wrote: It's amazing, the Jovians and the sleepers have some amazing tech. Makes me wonder what else the Sleepers, Jovians and other small but technologically superior groups have. First with the capsuleer tech saving factions from losing thousands of their people from the loss of one large ship. Now with troops that transfer to another body like the capsuleer tech once the body becomes useless. Any ship bigger than a firgate (even if said ship has a capsule pilot) has a crew in some form or another. For instance, when a battleship is blown up, there are still hundreds of other people on that ship who aint' the capsuleer. ^^^ Titans have something in the order of 3k support staff along with the capsuleer. There are a lot of menial tasks too trivial to concern the Capsuleer, who kind of has bigger things to worry about, like targeting and flying and stuff. ak.0 // 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak // I speak for the trees. Jason Person for CMP!