DUST Search - Why are Amarr suits not the best Armor tanking suits?

Martyr Saboteur wrote:

Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:

traditionally in eve it was

caldari - shields
amarr - armor
gallente - structure
minmatar - whatver you can find

seeing as stucture tanking just failed miserably and well lets face it in dust the structure is your a** they started moving gallente towards more armor and amarr as an inbetween shield/armor in a way that minmatar are mixed too, which fits well with them being enemies as wellas Khanid taking a lot of their tech from caldari and makign strong shield focused ships with missiles too. a lot of minmatar weapons are high EM or high EXP rounds, plus they have great drone bays and usually a couple missile laucnhers so amarrian tech has had to start compensating for the unpredictability of minmatar ships and the traits are moving over to their mercs suits

I've always seen it like this...

Amarr:
3/4 Armor, 1/4 shields, Really High EHP, Really Slow, Energy Weapons, Some Missiles, and Vamps

Caldari:
3/4 Shields, Average EHP levels with High Shield Regen,1/4 Armor, Kinda Slow, Missiles, Railguns, and Stealth

Gallente:
2/5 Shields, 3/5 Armor, Above Average EHP with A focus on Armor Regeneration, Somewhat Fast, Blasters, Railguns, and Scanning

Minmatar:
Wild Card HP ratios, Low EHP with fast regenative capabilities, Very Fast, Projectile Weapons, and "Dumb" Explosives

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Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 174	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:12:00 - [1] - Quote It just feel wrong that a Gallente suit can Armor tank better than an Amarr suit... it doesn't hold true to the Amarrian way. I'm mean, sure, the Amarr can technically have more armor, by a small margin. But the Gallente are getting free reps, so while most Amarrian suits will fit a repper, the Gallente ones wont have to, and will usually have more total armor as a result. They could tweak the base HP values so that Amarr suits have a lot of armor, but practically no shield and a lot of EHP. Amarr Basic: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Assault: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Logi: 290 Armor 30 Shields I would love this. Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10068	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:14:00 - [2] - Quote There's no problem with them not being the de facto best armour suits, but they should be better at fitting buffer. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3586	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:20:00 - [3] - Quote The MLT Amarr Medium has 2 highs and 0 lows. STD Assault is 2H 1L. It doesn't appear to have been thought out in those terms. They also said they weren't going to touch the slots on medium suits. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 174	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:25:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: There's no problem with them not being the de facto best armour suits, but they should be better at fitting buffer. They aren't even the best at that in all cases though. The Gallente Logi can fit more armor than an Amarr Logi, for instance. Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
Vanell Sin Dust2Dust. Top Men. 62	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:58:00 - [5] - Quote The thought is to make a hybrid suit. You have to fit shields/armor to be effective. If you look carefully you ll see that the amarrian suit gives you bouns to sheild recharging , and because of that its a dual tanking suit. Im playing since Uprising 1.0 and still have 8m SP.Im I doing something wrong? We are immortal Deal with it
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 174	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:01:00 - [6] - Quote Vanell Sin wrote: The thought is to make a hybrid suit. You have to fit shields/armor to be effective. If you look carefully you ll see that the amarrian suit gives you bouns to sheild recharging , and becuase of that its a dual tanking suit. Yeah. I know that CCP Shanghai wants them to be "dual tankers", but there is already an established trend of the Amarr being the Armor Buffer guys. Dual Tanking doesn't fit with their lore and combat philosophy. I see no reason for them to suddenly be shield users just because they are not in space. Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 412	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:05:00 - [7] - Quote I honestly like the whole dual tanking thing. The part that confuses me though is that Caldari are better at dual tanking. Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 766	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:08:00 - [8] - Quote Dual tanking is a cardinal sin. Amarr need some reworking. Amarr are fully invested into their armor. Gallente are part armor, part speed. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Spartykins NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 11	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:11:00 - [9] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: It just feel wrong that a Gallente suit can Armor tank better than an Amarr suit... it doesn't hold true to the Amarrian way. I'm mean, sure, the Amarr can technically have more armor, by a small margin. But the Gallente are getting free reps, so while most Amarrian suits will fit a repper, the Gallente ones wont have to, and will usually have more total armor as a result. They could tweak the base HP values so that Amarr suits have a lot of armor, but practically no shield and a lot of EHP. Amarr Basic: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Assault: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Logi: 290 Armor 30 Shields I would love this. Probably to avoid what the Gallente suits are doing. Doesn't really matter now though, since we have more weapons suited for dealing with armor. (Insert witty phrase here)
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 174	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:16:00 - [10] - Quote Spartykins wrote: Martyr Saboteur wrote: It just feel wrong that a Gallente suit can Armor tank better than an Amarr suit... it doesn't hold true to the Amarrian way. I'm mean, sure, the Amarr can technically have more armor, by a small margin. But the Gallente are getting free reps, so while most Amarrian suits will fit a repper, the Gallente ones wont have to, and will usually have more total armor as a result. They could tweak the base HP values so that Amarr suits have a lot of armor, but practically no shield and a lot of EHP. Amarr Basic: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Assault: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Logi: 290 Armor 30 Shields I would love this. Probably to avoid what the Gallente suits are doing. Doesn't really matter now though, since we have more weapons suited for dealing with armor. What? Stacking Armor Plates? That's kind of what Amarr do. They are well known for having the thickest Armor and the most EHP. I don't see a problem with this... Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.

Nirwanda Vaughns Death Firm. 369	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:20:00 - [11] - Quote traditionally in eve it was caldari - shields amarr - armor gallente - structure minmatar - whatver you can find seeing as stucture tanking just failed miserably and well lets face it in dust the structure is your a** they started moving gallente towards more armor and amarr as an inbetween shield/armor in a way that minmatar are mixed too, which fits well with them being enemies as wellas Khanid taking a lot of their tech from caldari and makign strong shield focused ships with missiles too. a lot of minmatar weapons are high EM or high EXP rounds, plus they have great drone bays and usually a couple missile laucnhers so amarrian tech has had to start compensating for the unpredictability of minmatar ships and the traits are moving over to their mercs suits Rolling with the punches
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 174	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:32:00 - [12] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: traditionally in eve it was caldari - shields amarr - armor gallente - structure minmatar - whatver you can find seeing as stucture tanking just failed miserably and well lets face it in dust the structure is your a** they started moving gallente towards more armor and amarr as an inbetween shield/armor in a way that minmatar are mixed too, which fits well with them being enemies as wellas Khanid taking a lot of their tech from caldari and makign strong shield focused ships with missiles too. a lot of minmatar weapons are high EM or high EXP rounds, plus they have great drone bays and usually a couple missile laucnhers so amarrian tech has had to start compensating for the unpredictability of minmatar ships and the traits are moving over to their mercs suits I've always seen it like this... Amarr: 3/4 Armor, 1/4 shields, Really High EHP, Really Slow, Energy Weapons, Some Missiles, and Vamps Caldari: 3/4 Shields, Average EHP levels with High Shield Regen,1/4 Armor, Kinda Slow, Missiles, Railguns, and Stealth Gallente: 2/5 Shields, 3/5 Armor, Above Average EHP with A focus on Armor Regeneration, Somewhat Fast, Blasters, Railguns, and Scanning Minmatar: Wild Card HP ratios, Low EHP with fast regenative capabilities, Very Fast, Projectile Weapons, and "Dumb" Explosives Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
Spartykins NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 11	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:43:00 - [13] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: That's kind of what Amarr do. They are well known for having the thickest Armor and the most EHP. I don't see a problem with this... Near heavy HP on a medium frame sounds somewhat bad. Honestly I'd still like to see what would happen if such a thing did happen. (Insert witty phrase here)
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3586	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:52:00 - [14] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: traditionally in eve it was caldari - shields amarr - armor gallente - structure minmatar - whatver you can find seeing as stucture tanking just failed miserably and well lets face it in dust the structure is your a** they started moving gallente towards more armor and amarr as an inbetween shield/armor in a way that minmatar are mixed too, which fits well with them being enemies as wellas Khanid taking a lot of their tech from caldari and makign strong shield focused ships with missiles too. a lot of minmatar weapons are high EM or high EXP rounds, plus they have great drone bays and usually a couple missile laucnhers so amarrian tech has had to start compensating for the unpredictability of minmatar ships and the traits are moving over to their mercs suits I've always seen it like this... Amarr: 3/4 Armor, 1/4 shields, Really High EHP, Really Slow, Energy Weapons, Some Missiles, and Vamps Caldari: 3/4 Shields, Average EHP levels with High Shield Regen,1/4 Armor, Kinda Slow, Missiles, Railguns, and Stealth Gallente: 2/5 Shields, 3/5 Armor, Above Average EHP with A focus on Armor Regeneration, Somewhat Fast, Blasters, Railguns, and Scanning Minmatar: Wild Card HP ratios, Low EHP with fast regenative capabilities, Very Fast, Projectile Weapons, and "Dumb" Explosives ... Amarr have the 2nd fastest Interceptor, and the other is tied for third with the other Minmatar. You're also leaving out Amarr/Gallente being "the drone people". I don't really think of Gallente as being Rails either, aside from the fact that blasters and rails tend to be interchangeable with how they have bonuses refer to hybrid instead of rail/blaster specifically. It's kinda like if they'd split Beams and Pulse lasers across races I guess. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Yan Darn Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 277	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:53:00 - [15] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: Vanell Sin wrote: The thought is to make a hybrid suit. You have to fit shields/armor to be effective. If you look carefully you ll see that the amarrian suit gives you bouns to sheild recharging , and becuase of that its a dual tanking suit. Yeah. I know that CCP Shanghai wants them to be "dual tankers", but there is already an established trend of the Amarr being the Armor Buffer guys. Dual Tanking doesn't fit with their lore and combat philosophy. I see no reason for them to suddenly be shield users just because they are not in space. Maybe the dropsuits are Khanid Tech? I think part of the problem is lack of armour harderners/resist plates - they are about EHP buffer rather than just high armour points aren't they? You probably don't know me. But next time you get gunned down or exploded by a Valor scout...check the name.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 6799	Posted - 2014.02.26 08:53:00 - [16] - Quote 2hp/s on the Gallente assault. Yup, I can TOTALLY use just that and not equip an armor rep Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3586	Posted - 2014.02.26 09:03:00 - [17] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: 2hp/s on the Gallente assault. Yup, I can TOTALLY use just that and not equip an armor rep Where are you getting those assault stats from? Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 138	Posted - 2014.02.26 09:42:00 - [18] - Quote Random thought, perhaps have 3 bonuses? Suit bonus, racial suit bonus and race wide bonus. So all Gal suits of all sizes would get +25% to rep mods and so on. Would have to balance the numbers, giving +25% to rep mods and +25% to armour plating is not equal.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7608	Posted - 2014.02.26 09:51:00 - [19] - Quote Because we aren't the best armour tankers....just a special resistance based kind. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2089	Posted - 2014.02.26 15:48:00 - [20] - Quote Don't think of it as pure armor tanking as people have said. Think of it more like your shield is a buffer for your armor. It has the ability to absorb/blunt anti-armor weapons giving a kind of resist against anti-armor weapons. This really is what makes Amarr strong in Eve and should be the way people think about 'hybrid'. Think of your shields as a kind of armor hardener that can be depleted.

CLONE117 True Pros Forever 695	Posted - 2014.02.26 15:55:00 - [21] - Quote amarr is technically dual tankers. as is their religion(from what ive heard ships may have high amounts of armor in eve but from what ive heard about the lore all that amor is there to prevent hull breachs and such.). the suits are supposedly more Representative of the amarrian culture. idk. i dont play eve.
ZeroGeass POISION ROSES Galactic Skyfleet Empire 5	Posted - 2014.02.26 16:01:00 - [22] - Quote Gallente-armor Caldari-shield Ammar both shield and armor but less speed and slot Minmatar-less armor and shield but more speed and slot The cpu/pg are different as well, there all good but it just depend on ur game style There no such thing as no such things
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 1748	Posted - 2014.02.26 16:23:00 - [23] - Quote ZeroGeass wrote: Gallente-armor Caldari-shield Ammar both shield and armor but less speed and slot Minmatar-less armor and shield but more speed and slot The cpu/pg are different as well, there all good but it just depend on ur game style Based on my experience with all these suits: Caldari Assault needs a huge CPU buff: there's no point in having 3 low slots when one must be used for a CPU upgrade. Caldari Logistics have one slot more than needed. Gallente should be nerfed a bit on their base Armor, also, shouldn't be able to fit that huge amount of tank and two complex damage mod. Although Gallente Logi shouldn't have all those slots, and should be nerfed on its PG, so that a PG upgrade is compulsory if you want to fit all that tank. Amarr Assault would be the worst suit if it wasn't for its bonus. Definitely need one extra low slot, more PG and less CPU. Amarr Logi is ok, a bit too strong, considering it can be used as an assault suit, a light base armor nerf would be good. Minmatar Logi is ok. Minmatar Assault is pretty good, but imo need a bit more base shield and a bit more CPU maybe. @OP I definitely think Amarr should armor tank way more than Gallente, but should be slower. Can't understand why CCP decided that Amarr had to dual tank :/ >Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR TCD ToXiCaTeD RISE of LEGION 1519	Posted - 2014.02.26 16:28:00 - [24] - Quote in my opinion, it kind of makes sense from a balance point of view. have you ever seen an assault ak.0 with a Viziam? if that guy knows how to use the ScR, there's no beating them in a 1v1. Anime > EVERYTHING
Soldier Sorajord Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 87	Posted - 2014.02.26 16:32:00 - [25] - Quote Shield tank a little bit. Amarr = Dual tanking. Not just armor tanking. So it seems right that Gallente are more used to ARMOR tanking than Amarr because that's their specialty. Heck, I'm a gallente but watching your shield and armor is vital, even with that small sliver of health from your shield. Do not complain if you have never done anything about it. Chromosome Veteran *Subsonic.*
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10072	Posted - 2014.02.26 17:27:00 - [26] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: traditionally in eve it was caldari - shields amarr - armor gallente - structure minmatar - whatver you can find Gallente ships active armour tank in EVE. They do not structure tank. If you disagree, point out some ships with structure bonuses, please. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7620	Posted - 2014.02.26 18:45:00 - [27] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: amarr is technically dual tankers. as is their religion(from what ive heard ships may have high amounts of armor in eve but from what ive heard about the lore all that amor is there to prevent hull breachs and such.). the suits are supposedly more Representative of the amarrian culture. idk. i dont play eve. We aren't dual tankers and there is nothing necessarily in our religion that is indicative of that. In EVE all ships at base levels without modules have relatively similar shield and armour values. Amarr are pure armour tankers through and through. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10077	Posted - 2014.02.26 18:47:00 - [28] - Quote True Adamance wrote: CLONE117 wrote: amarr is technically dual tankers. as is their religion(from what ive heard ships may have high amounts of armor in eve but from what ive heard about the lore all that amor is there to prevent hull breachs and such.). the suits are supposedly more Representative of the amarrian culture. idk. i dont play eve. We aren't dual tankers and there is nothing necessarily in our religion that is indicative of that. In EVE all ships at base levels without modules have relatively similar shield and armour values. Amarr are pure armour tankers through and through. Confirming - there are very few Amarr ships that can be viably shield tanked in EVE. Dual tanking in EVE is also a bad idea for numerous reasons. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1735	Posted - 2014.02.26 19:21:00 - [29] - Quote Martyr Saboteur wrote: It just feel wrong that a Gallente suit can Armor tank better than an Amarr suit... it doesn't hold true to the Amarrian way. I'm mean, sure, the Amarr can technically have more armor, by a small margin. But the Gallente are getting free reps, so while most Amarrian suits will fit a repper, the Gallente ones wont have to, and will usually have more total armor as a result. They could tweak the base HP values so that Amarr suits have a lot of armor, but practically no shield and a lot of EHP. Amarr Basic: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Assault: 320 Armor 40 Shields Amarr Logi: 290 Armor 30 Shields I would love this. with reference only to ehp: amar are supposed to be the best armor tanking suits. because in eve they are the best armor tankers. (and have the highest EHP) caldar are supposed to be the best shield tankers, with the highest shields. galente are supposed to be decent armor tankers with the best armor recovery. so galente suits should always have an innate rep, but never get as much ehp as an amar. minmatar ae supposed to have the lowest shield and armor BUT have the highest shield regen, and shortest regen delay. they also, have innate reps although less than galente. (they are the best at repair and shield regen. this supports their hit-and-run play style.) Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1735	Posted - 2014.02.26 19:21:00 - [30] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: in my opinion, it kind of makes sense from a balance point of view. have you ever seen an assault ak.0 with a Viziam? if that guy knows how to use the ScR, there's no beating them in a 1v1. scr needs a massive nerf on all its damage. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça

Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 177	Posted - 2014.02.26 19:46:00 - [31] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: in my opinion, it kind of makes sense from a balance point of view. have you ever seen an assault ak.0 with a Viziam? if that guy knows how to use the ScR, there's no beating them in a 1v1. scr needs a massive nerf on all its damage. A lot of guns need a nerf... and a lot of things need to be buffed Small Nerf: AR (less range, more damage) SMG (less damage) Magsec (its not even out, and it needs a nerf) Normal Nerf: ScR (sizable nerf to RoF) CR (small delay between bursts, and slightly less damage) Large Nerf: RR (it shouldn't be so good in close quarters) Large Railguns (redline, really) Large Blasters (give them a bit of dispersion) No changes: ScP Sniper Rifle Small Missiles Large Missiles Small Rails HMG Small Buff: Ion Pistol (more damage) Shotgun (slightly faster RoF) Swarm Launcher (faster missile speed, and a slightly longer lock-on range) Forge Gun (more damage) Small Blasters (make them like the Scattered blasters we used to have) Bolt Pistol (Maybe... it doesn't look OP, so it must be UP. I refuse to believe CCP will release a balanced item) Normal Buff: Laser Rifle (larger optimal range) Mass Driver (as much as I hate this noob weapon, I'll admit it needs a small buff) Large Buff: Plasma Cannon (seriously. why is this still an issue?) Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7621	Posted - 2014.02.26 19:59:00 - [32] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: in my opinion, it kind of makes sense from a balance point of view. have you ever seen an assault ak.0 with a Viziam? if that guy knows how to use the ScR, there's no beating them in a 1v1. scr needs a massive nerf on all its damage. No more so than the CR need recoil increases and....same with the RR need effective range nerf "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1344	Posted - 2014.02.26 20:03:00 - [33] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The MLT Amarr Medium has 2 highs and 0 lows. STD Assault is 2H 1L. It doesn't appear to have been thought out in those terms. They also said they weren't going to touch the slots on medium suits. I took it to mean that Amarr have hard hp. The armor that is already on the suit is all you get. Therefore, the shields are what can be tweaked and that is just because they get the high slots for other mods. The low would take a repper and that is it. No tweaking armor. It's screwy but plausible. Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!


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