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Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
805
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Posted - 2014.02.25 19:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
STATS
PRO Vanilla Shotgun:
DMG - 39.6/pellet
RoF - 85.7
Accuracy - 34.2
Clip - 8
Max Ammo - 32
Reload - 0.6 s
PRO Breach Shotgun Variant
DMG - 47.5/pellet
RoF - 60
Accuracy - 44.5
Clip - 2
Max Ammo - 14
Reload - 1.3 s
ARGUMENT
The Breach variant shotgun is a decent idea and a good take on giving the gun a new role, but the execution leaves too much to be desired. The gun packs extra stopping power over the vanilla or specialist versions, but the downsides are currently too great.
Shotguns work by having damage per pellet, with (I believe) 12 pellets per shot. If all 12 hit the target, you do full damage. The PRO Breach shotgun delivers an extra 7.9 damage per pellet, for a maximum boost of 94.8 extra damage in one shot. ThatGÇÖs a huge bonus, nearly 100 extra EHP per pull of the trigger.
The problem, however, is that this bonus is offset by too many downsides. For starters, the rate of fire is 30% slower. The increase firing speed means in the time it takes the Breach to fire twice, the vanilla shotgun has fired three times, and caught up on damage delivered.
The strength of the Breach is exclusively found in the first shot. By the time you fire the second, the vanilla shotgun has caught up. This in itself wouldnGÇÖt be so much of a problem, except for the fact that the Breach only has 2 shots in its clip. Assuming you miss one shot or partially miss and you havenGÇÖt put the target down in 2, you need to reload. Reloading a shotgun mid fight is brutal, because every shot is reloaded individually, instead of an entire clip. For the Breach it is even worse, because the reload time is more than doubled.
The vanilla shotgunner in the same situation (of having left his victim alive after 1) can keep plugging away, up to 8 shots, and deliver significantly more damage after the immediate engagement. The vanilla shotgunner is also in a better reactive position, assuming a new enemy appears. (They also pay less ISK for an easier to use weapon).
Even if the extra damage did its job, and you achieve 1 shot 1 kill, the clip size of the Breach dictates you reload after every kill. Again, the long reload time leaves you flatfooted to surprises.
The alpha damage on the Breach is perfectly fine, and doesnGÇÖt need a boost. In fact, boosting the damage still doesnGÇÖt help because the vanilla shotgun will ultimately catch up by virtue of being so much faster. What the Breach could stand, is a bump in clip size.
Moving from Clip Size 2 to Clip Size 4 would increase the versatility of the gun and leave it much less susceptible to imperfect situations. A breach shotgunner would be much more able to deal with a series of enemy engagements without being left off guard. And the damage output over time would still not outpace the much faster vanilla shotgun.
Keep the long reload time and the low ammo. Reward the Breach user for calm, well aimed shots, without relegating them to outskirt one on one only engagements. |
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
837
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Posted - 2014.02.25 20:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
I certainly think the breach needs at least 3 rounds before a reload. The current 2 is too little. 3 or 4 would be the sweet spot I believe,
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Mahal Daj
Mahal Tactical Enterprises
27
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Posted - 2014.02.25 20:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Suggestion if the clip size is left at 2: make the breach variant handle more like an over-and-under shotgun. The two shots can be fired almost simultaneously, while all other downsides (clip size, reload speed, weird handling) are left in tact.
I also support the 4 shot version, just throwing out another idea.
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Dustbunny Durrr
ReD or DeaD
123
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Posted - 2014.02.25 20:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:I certainly think the breach needs at least 3 rounds before a reload. The current 2 is too little. 3 or 4 would be the sweet spot I believe,
I'm a vote for 3. Four just seems a little too much, but 3 seems good IMO. |
Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
847
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Posted - 2014.02.25 20:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
My two isklets.
Damage up to 50 per pellet.
Clip up to 4.
Max ammo up to 20.
Reload down to 1s
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Kilo Shells
G.L.O.R.Y
33
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Posted - 2014.02.26 17:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
You only need 2;) id change the reload speed if anything
Caldari Assault
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9618
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Posted - 2014.02.26 17:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Should be at least 3 in m opinion.
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Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
808
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kilo Shells wrote:You only need 2;) id change the reload speed if anything
I disagree actually. If you decrease the reload time, you actually make the gun more likely to be used the same way as vanilla: unload, reload, unload, reload, last man standing wins.
Having the excruciatingly long reload time forces the player to make sure every shot is accounted for before the engagement. It changes the way you use the shotgun to being even more methodical and precise, in exchange for a larger damage payload.
The reason I advocate higher clip size is because you dedicate a light weapon slot to something thatGÇÖs probably going to be your main weapon, but 2 shots almost guarantees you are incapable of dealing with 2 people at once. It relegates the Breach shotgun to being used for outskirt engagements only, like sniper hunting, where extra stopping power isnGÇÖt even necessarily needed.
Also, hit detection is still a little laggy, which affects all guns. But the Breach shotgun, if you don't connect once because of spotty connectivity, you've lost surprise AND half your clip. |
Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
30
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
I was under the impression the breach works as intended - you're trading awesome firepower over utility (breach vs. vanilla). An assassin build favors breach much more than the vanilla as they are usually in a 1v1 situation. If you aren't, that's your fault - weapon choices always have consequences.
That said, you are right that the only reasonable way to improve the gun without imbalance on other guns (its own variants included) is probably just clip size. 4 shots is the maximum, I'd argue just three - you can screw up once but you keep that intended mechanic of raw power vs. utility.
Someone proposed a double barrel setup - i.e. changing the trigger time to virtually 0 (like CR currently). I'd support this idea a lot over the clip size. The dmg potential is not actually increased, just the killing potential on ONE target...again, keeping the mechanic in place.
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1329
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
I definitely think the breach should be re-worked a bit. 3 shots at LEAST....
Didn't it used to have greater range in chrome? Even a few extra meters would help offset some of the drawbacks of this gun such as the low ROF and long reload. It's such a situational weapon it seems like a waste of a light weapon slot. I'd rather put another sidearm in my LW slot than the breach....
I really want to like the gun but every time I try it out again for a few games it just frustrates me, and I'm not the type to routinely engage large groups. But I'd at least like to be able to have a chance against 2 opponents at close range....
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Kilo Shells
G.L.O.R.Y
33
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Posted - 2014.02.27 16:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
I wouldn't complain about a bigger "clip" size. I'd just kill three instead of two before escaping;)
The reload speed is definitely the biggest drawback so ammo capacity might be the best idea.
I love my breach shotty to death, but I'll admit if there's three reds or you waste a shot you're screwed.
Caldari Assault
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killertojo42
Sardaukar Merc Guild
27
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Posted - 2014.02.27 16:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'd say just make it semi-auto with a 10-15% decrease in reload speed and make it a faster paced higher maneuverability weapon
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Mahal Daj
Mahal Tactical Enterprises
30
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Posted - 2014.02.28 15:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
If the 2-shot variant is in favor, I support the handling of a real-life over-and-under shotgun (near instant access to the second squeeze of the trigger) with a long reload. I'd like to add to this that the range should be substantially buffed (which due to pellet dispersion will still cause some tactical planning for solid hits).
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The-Errorist
522
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Posted - 2014.03.02 21:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
You're forgetting that the breach variant also has a higher optimal range. I do agree that the breach variants should have 3 or 4 rounds per magazine. Maybe it should get 3 at advanced and 4 at prototype. |
The-Errorist
590
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
This is still a balance issue. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
853
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Posted - 2014.03.28 13:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mahal Daj wrote:Suggestion if the clip size is left at 2: make the breach variant handle more like an over-and-under shotgun. The two shots can be fired almost simultaneously, while all other downsides (clip size, reload speed, weird handling) are left in tact.
I also support the 4 shot version, just throwing out another idea.
I like that, this would be like a double barrel SG that can fire both barrels for double damage... |
Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
944
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Posted - 2014.03.28 14:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Given that RoF on the shotgun was removed and replaced with damage add to shields, I think the 2 shot over-under would be the best change to the Breach. Instead of adding pure damage in the form of extra shots, this would just increase the DPS. Then the long reload time would take effect and act as a damage limit soft cap. Need 3 shots to take out a heavy? Better invest in Rapid Reload. Or a sidearm.
Hail Bacon
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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Dirt Nap Squad.
590
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Posted - 2014.03.28 18:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
breach should be a fast firing double barrel shotgun.
Or a slow firing long range slug monster.
It needs some buffs apart from just capacity.
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