DUST Search - A discussion about shields vs. armor

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Komodo Jones wrote:

I guess that makes sense, I'd have about the same health if I had a bunch of extenders on, it would be great not to be hunted down 24/7

I know scanners and weapons are getting fixed but I heard nothing about damage mods, no info passed "getting looked at"? I mean that's good enough for me but if they have a plan they let us in on that would be great, haven't seen a dev blog since january.

There was a comment on reducing the efficacy of damage mods (or possibly making them only affect the weapon's affinity, possibly like the new proficiency skill). I don't have the link on me ATM, but if I come across it I'll link it here.

Komodo Jones wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

That's partially it. Higher grade weaponry takes up more PG, stacking defensive modules will take up a lot of PG. Utility modules take up a lot of CPU.

Utility modules are a lot more important in EVE. Stasis webifiers, propulsion mods, tracking computers, etc give much more variety to armour utility slots. In Dust, it's just damage mods or dual tanking, really. Myofibril stimulants are a stupid proposition and precision enhancers are only useful in some niche fits and sometimes will have very little or no effect.
Damage mods are in the lows in EVE, and many view that as a justification to move them but if you do, there's essentially no viable option for high slots except to shield tank, and honestly if that's the case I'd much rather go pure shield and enjoy the huge variety of useful modules in the low slots.

So let's get some armor mods in the high slots lol. You're right that the main problem is still defense or damage and that I think comes from the fact that there's just no use for other modules, and I mean that literally, there is just nothing else to do in this game but war and when you go to war you bring things that keep you alive and things that make other things go boom. We can't go mine asteroids or direct the troops or team's defenses, this is self evident from the fact that there is no current suit that has the title "non-combat". Therefore there is no such thing as fight or flight, you can temporarily run away from a hairy situation sure but the simple fact is if you want to make any progress you HAVE to fight at some point, you have to get back in the battle, can't just leave the area and the war behind.

If I were going out to scavenge materials I would definitely pack scanner modules and speed mods, I'm not equipped to handle a fight at that point so I gotta bail but there's nothing to do except be a part of that fight

I think utility modules are underestimated. The fitting requirements for kincats are absurd but cardiac regs are surprisingly useful. Fitting one, I barely ever run out of stamina.
By extension, I think you're underestimating what you can do with these. Think tactically, rather than up-front. You are correct in saying that you have to fight. But do you have to fight head on? To me, this is the crux of the matter and the role definition is important. People say that shields are for 'hit and run', but I'm not sure that quite encompasses it.

High mobility, the ability to evade scans, better passive scans, and the ability to get back into the fight quicker unaided are all useful things. These things give you exactly what you need to move positions fluidly, hold range, skirmish, flank, keep at range, etc.

Conversely, armour is for high buffer and the damage to crush people in head on fights. To counteract that, though, they're slow and have little utility (with the notable exception of the logistics class, which is a problem in its own right).

You might not see these utility modules as useful in straight combat, and some of them need love (I've mentioned the high PG usage for kincats) but the tactical usage is amazing.
With shields, you can't take on armour tanking enemies head on in a single engagement. You can take them 1v1 head on if you take a moment to recharge, but straight up charging them doesn't work. That's by design, really.

However, as a shield tanker, you can fit to see people on your scanner passively while they can't see you even with an active scanner. That immediately gives you a significant advantage.

So I really do find your suggestion that the only way to fight is head on, and the only way to do things is through defense and damage. Sure, in a head on fight, perhaps they are. I have a question for you, though: Why fight head on all the time? There's a massive potential for utility modules without fighting head on. It's a fun playstyle and it can be extremely effective, especially against people who believe that damage and defence are the only way.

I don't think that you can simply switch damage mods to low slots, chuck a couple of armour modules in the high slots and call it quits. What armour modules are you suggesting? Do they augment the role's strengths, or cover its weaknesses? If it's the latter, I don't think it's a good solution because it leads to homogenisation of the roles. I love the design of shields exactly because it's focused towards doing what it does best and not covering its weaknesses. There's certainly work to be done on them - basic and enhanced shields scale terribly, and team support is lacking - but I don't think it's quite as bad as most people whining on the forums about it.

It's all about role definition. What do you want to do? Neither tank should be able to do everything, nor can they.


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RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 520	Posted - 2014.02.24 23:52:00 - [1] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: I guess that makes sense, I'd have about the same health if I had a bunch of extenders on, it would be great not to be hunted down 24/7 I know scanners and weapons are getting fixed but I heard nothing about damage mods, no info passed "getting looked at"? I mean that's good enough for me but if they have a plan they let us in on that would be great, haven't seen a dev blog since january. There was a comment on reducing the efficacy of damage mods (or possibly making them only affect the weapon's affinity, possibly like the new proficiency skill). I don't have the link on me ATM, but if I come across it I'll link it here. Komodo Jones wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: That's partially it. Higher grade weaponry takes up more PG, stacking defensive modules will take up a lot of PG. Utility modules take up a lot of CPU. Utility modules are a lot more important in EVE. Stasis webifiers, propulsion mods, tracking computers, etc give much more variety to armour utility slots. In Dust, it's just damage mods or dual tanking, really. Myofibril stimulants are a stupid proposition and precision enhancers are only useful in some niche fits and sometimes will have very little or no effect. Damage mods are in the lows in EVE, and many view that as a justification to move them but if you do, there's essentially no viable option for high slots except to shield tank, and honestly if that's the case I'd much rather go pure shield and enjoy the huge variety of useful modules in the low slots. So let's get some armor mods in the high slots lol. You're right that the main problem is still defense or damage and that I think comes from the fact that there's just no use for other modules, and I mean that literally, there is just nothing else to do in this game but war and when you go to war you bring things that keep you alive and things that make other things go boom. We can't go mine asteroids or direct the troops or team's defenses, this is self evident from the fact that there is no current suit that has the title "non-combat". Therefore there is no such thing as fight or flight, you can temporarily run away from a hairy situation sure but the simple fact is if you want to make any progress you HAVE to fight at some point, you have to get back in the battle, can't just leave the area and the war behind. If I were going out to scavenge materials I would definitely pack scanner modules and speed mods, I'm not equipped to handle a fight at that point so I gotta bail but there's nothing to do except be a part of that fight I think utility modules are underestimated. The fitting requirements for kincats are absurd but cardiac regs are surprisingly useful. Fitting one, I barely ever run out of stamina. By extension, I think you're underestimating what you can do with these. Think tactically, rather than up-front. You are correct in saying that you have to fight. But do you have to fight head on? To me, this is the crux of the matter and the role definition is important. People say that shields are for 'hit and run', but I'm not sure that quite encompasses it. High mobility, the ability to evade scans, better passive scans, and the ability to get back into the fight quicker unaided are all useful things. These things give you exactly what you need to move positions fluidly, hold range, skirmish, flank, keep at range, etc. Conversely, armour is for high buffer and the damage to crush people in head on fights. To counteract that, though, they're slow and have little utility (with the notable exception of the logistics class, which is a problem in its own right). You might not see these utility modules as useful in straight combat, and some of them need love (I've mentioned the high PG usage for kincats) but the tactical usage is amazing. With shields, you can't take on armour tanking enemies head on in a single engagement. You can take them 1v1 head on if you take a moment to recharge, but straight up charging them doesn't work. That's by design, really. However, as a shield tanker, you can fit to see people on your scanner passively while they can't see you even with an active scanner. That immediately gives you a significant advantage. So I really do find your suggestion that the only way to fight is head on, and the only way to do things is through defense and damage. Sure, in a head on fight, perhaps they are. I have a question for you, though: Why fight head on all the time? There's a massive potential for utility modules without fighting head on. It's a fun playstyle and it can be extremely effective, especially against people who believe that damage and defence are the only way. I don't think that you can simply switch damage mods to low slots, chuck a couple of armour modules in the high slots and call it quits. What armour modules are you suggesting? Do they augment the role's strengths, or cover its weaknesses? If it's the latter, I don't think it's a good solution because it leads to homogenisation of the roles. I love the design of shields exactly because it's focused towards doing what it does best and not covering its weaknesses. There's certainly work to be done on them - basic and enhanced shields scale terribly, and team support is lacking - but I don't think it's quite as bad as most people whining on the forums about it. It's all about role definition. What do you want to do? Neither tank should be able to do everything, nor can they. This post sums the whole thread up nicely I feel. As a shield tanker you need to pick your fights and be smart about cover, as an armour tanker you need to have a teammate with you at all times, pick your fights and be smart about cover if you want to get back into the fight. The disparity between hitpoints is down to your regen. Shield based suits get 20hp/s regen, my armour suit gets 6.25hp/s or maybe 12.50hp/s with two complex reps.