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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1822
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Posted - 2014.02.21 17:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:I'm curious to find out how other Mercs feel about the constatntly monthly-shifting FOTM meta.
We all have played "AR 514," "MD 514," and now we're playing "RR 514." This is largely due to the monthly releases of nerf/buff/new weapon patch cycles. With the new weapons, which seemingly get released in a greatly overpowered state, only to be nerfed into infinity in the next monthly cycle, it shifts the meta to the current hotness, the flavor of the month. There have been numerous flavors of the month, ranging from the examples above to the Flaylock hotness to the era of the Murder Taxis to the reign of the Caldari Logi-Assault.
There has never been "MD 514", and "RR 514" is just more AR 514. Even when MDs were useful, AR users outnumbered MD users by 10 to 1. In fact, AR users outnumbered all other weapon users combined if you ignore snipers.
What you guys are seeing as the FOTM is actually a second order issue because the flavor of the game has always been AR. We now have new ARs, but it's still AR 514 - meaning high dps, med to long range effective hitscan weapons with too much AimAssist.
The hitscan weapons need to be toned down. Simple as that.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1839
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Posted - 2014.02.23 02:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Vespasian Andendare wrote:I'm curious to find out how other Mercs feel about the constatntly monthly-shifting FOTM meta.
We all have played "AR 514," "MD 514," and now we're playing "RR 514." This is largely due to the monthly releases of nerf/buff/new weapon patch cycles. With the new weapons, which seemingly get released in a greatly overpowered state, only to be nerfed into infinity in the next monthly cycle, it shifts the meta to the current hotness, the flavor of the month. There have been numerous flavors of the month, ranging from the examples above to the Flaylock hotness to the era of the Murder Taxis to the reign of the Caldari Logi-Assault. There has never been "MD 514", and "RR 514" is just more AR 514. Even when MDs were useful, AR users outnumbered MD users by 10 to 1. In fact, AR users outnumbered all other weapon users combined if you ignore snipers. The same is true for Flaylocks. The Flaylock has never even been the most popular sidearm. What you guys are seeing as the FOTM is actually a second order issue because the flavor of the game has always been AR. We now have new ARs, but it's still AR 514 - meaning high dps, med to long range effective hitscan weapons with too much AimAssist. The hitscan weapons need to be toned down. Simple as that. They're assault rifles, they're supposed to be popular. Everything else is a niche or a specialty. You lost credibility when you said there was no Flaylock FOTM.
Flaylock was never OP, not FOTM. CCP over reacted. It was useful in it's niche, and that is all. (True, AR* users would just close distance and subsequently get killed, just like they do with shotguns, knives, anything that is niche really. AR* users don't recognize niches, and think the AR* should be at least even no matter the circumstances) The submachine gun has always been the sidearm of choice, even during the great Flaylock panic of AR users.
There should be no generalist weapon in Dust. The very existence of generalist weapons is one of the primary factors that has dumbed down dust, reduced tactical options, and made the game boring. All weapons should be niche weapons, it's as simple as that, unless you like the current AR 514* where there's just one infantry role, one infantry weapon, and one infantry tactic (barring those that people choose just because they'd rather not be sheep, but are certainly a disadvantage). To me, that's the definition of a subpar game and a cookie cutter effort at best.
I'm not super concerned with your measure of what constitutes credibility.
*AR 514 - medium to long range, hitscan weapons, capable of very high dps and virtually no short range deficits, i.e EZ mode. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1843
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Posted - 2014.02.23 17:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
Twin flaylock fits dominated at short to short-medium range. Even if the non-FL user got the drop on the FL, the FL user just had to turn and start spamming anywhere near the opponent's feet and they'd win the engagement. This is due to the smoke and blast throwing off the enemy's aim, while the FL user just had to land his shots somewhere in the general vicinity. All that in a sidearm. It was very, very OP.
I've highlighted the important parts. First off, it doesn't really matter now, but I still stand by my statement - the Flaylock was never OP.
When you mention that the flaylock user dominated short to medium range encounters this is only a small piece of what actually happened. First off, flaylock users didn't dominate any area, they were however useful at short range, not medium range.
Now, they did dominate short range encounters where AR players just stupidly played "run and gun" and just closed to extreme close range with their trusty AR. This is because the AR (and now it's new cousins) are in fact, so OP, that AR users never learned any tactics. They were, and are still, used to running in to any situation and expecting their AR to win the game for them. This is why a subset of the playerbase believes that the flaylock dominated - because it dominated them, in it's preferred niche, based on poor counter tactics. This is how it should be - sidearm or no.
Now, even during the height of it's popularity, the flaylock was less used, less destructive, and less easy than the sidearm of choice - the SMG - which, like the other hitscan weapons can dominate in too many niches.
That's the problem with generalist weapons, they either ar OP or worthless. They can't be properly balanced against niche weapons. Furthermore, they cause players to fail to learn tactics precisely due to the generalist nature of the weapon. This is why, we have a Dust with generally OP hitscan weapons, and Dust has lost most of it's initial promise as a "thinking man's shooter".
The generalist weapons kill diversity, and cause players to expect them to always win. Then, said players, insist that anytime they are killed consistently by another weapon, even in that weapon's niche, that the other weapon is OP, when in fact, it is the generalist weapon that is OP and hurting Dust.
In short - your first highlighted part is wrong due to the inclusion of medium range. Flaylocks have a projectile travel time, making them harder to score a hit with than any hitscan weapon at any range, regardless of a small explosion or not. Also, your conclusion is wrong due to your viewpoint being myopic from the point of view of someone who expects a single weapon (AR*) to always dominate, or at least be even vs any other weapon. This, by design, is bad.
AR* - Again I mean high dps, hitscan, med to long range powerhouses with little or no shortrange drawbacks or drawbacks in general. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1847
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 18:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
Twin flaylock fits dominated at short to short-medium range. Even if the non-FL user got the drop on the FL, the FL user just had to turn and start spamming anywhere near the opponent's feet and they'd win the engagement. This is due to the smoke and blast throwing off the enemy's aim, while the FL user just had to land his shots somewhere in the general vicinity. All that in a sidearm. It was very, very OP.
I've highlighted the important parts. First off, it doesn't really matter now, but I still stand by my statement - the Flaylock was never OP. When you mention that the flaylock user dominated short to medium range encounters this is only a small piece of what actually happened. First off, flaylock users didn't dominate any area, they were however useful at short range, not medium range. Now, they did dominate short range encounters where AR players just stupidly played "run and gun" and just closed to extreme close range with their trusty AR. This is because the AR (and now it's new cousins) are in fact, so OP, that AR users never learned any tactics. They were, and are still, used to running in to any situation and expecting their AR to win the game for them. This is why a subset of the playerbase believes that the flaylock dominated - because it dominated them, in it's preferred niche, based on poor counter tactics. This is how it should be - sidearm or no.Now, even during the height of it's popularity, the flaylock was less used, less destructive, and less easy than the sidearm of choice - the SMG - which, like the other hitscan weapons can dominate in too many niches. That's the problem with generalist weapons, they are either OP or worthless. They can't be properly balanced against niche weapons. Furthermore, they cause players to fail to learn tactics precisely due to the generalist nature of the weapon. This is why, we have a Dust with generally OP hitscan weapons, and Dust has lost most of it's initial promise as a "thinking man's shooter". The generalist weapons kill diversity, and cause players to expect them to always win. Then, said players, insist that anytime they are killed consistently by another weapon, even in that weapon's niche, that the other weapon is OP, when in fact, it is the generalist weapon that is OP and hurting Dust.In short - your first highlighted part is wrong due to the inclusion of medium range. Flaylocks have a projectile travel time, making them harder to score a hit with than any hitscan weapon at any range, regardless of a small explosion or not. Also, your conclusion is wrong due to your viewpoint being myopic from the point of view of someone who expects a single weapon (AR*) to always dominate, or at least be even vs any other weapon. This, by design, is bad. AR* - Again I mean high dps, hitscan, med to long range powerhouses with little or no short range drawbacks or drawbacks in general. Read what I said. I didn't say it dominated at medium range, I said it dominated at short-medium range, i.e. at the short end of medium range. I also didn't use AR at that time - I was a dedicated HMG heavy. Hardly a 'high dps, hitscan, med to long range powerhouse'. Supposedly the HMG should have been dominating at close range, but it was outclassed by the flaylock - that's right, a heavy weapon outclassed by a sidearm within its own area of (supposed) expertise. I would almost always beat ARs or shotguns up close, but a flaylock would usually get the better of me. I disagree with this: 'Now, they did dominate short range encounters where AR players just stupidly played "run and gun" and just closed to extreme close range with their trusty AR'. With the HMG the best chance against a FP was to get so close to the pistolier (basically on top of them) that they would hit themselves with the blast. That would also work with an AR. So what you call stupid I call smart. Of course, the FP was so OP that often this strategy wouldn't work, but it was still the best strategy for a short range engagement against it. Maybe you'll say 'aha, why was the AR involved in a short range engagement?'. But in an objective-based game mode the majority of engagements are short range. If you're expecting ARs users (i.e., most of the playerbase in early Uprising) to stay away from objectives and lose the game just because some reds brought a sidearm along it's obvious that's an OP sidearm.
I'll tell you what. Let's just agree to disagree.
The HMG should beat a flaylock in short range, of course. I contend, though, that this was never due to the flaylock being OP. I contend that it was due to the HMG being UP. The HMG has been UP for quite some time. Now saying that, a heavy is also a pretty good target for a weapon like a flaylock. What makes the flaylock hard is it's short range combined with projectile travel time. Obviously, a relatively slow heavy would be bit easier to hit with such a weapon.
I will say if said "run and gun" AR users are trying to get so close that the flaylock user damages themselves, well, then, they're doing it wrong. This might be an OK strategy for a heavy with a lot more HP, but the AR user has the vast - vast- advantage against a flaylock user at anything OTHER than extreme short range, and thus closing like an idiot is just that. Maybe not for a heavy though. Even with a heavy, this might not be a very good idea, but I haven't played heavy in quite a while.
As an aside, the HMG has suffered just like all the other niche weapons at the hands of the AR hegemony. |
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