DUST Search - Tanker hypocrisy

Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:

Crimson Cerberes wrote:

Before:
AV is invulnerable to Tanks (rendering glitch)

Now:
Tanks are invulnerable to infantry and most AV overnerfed SL and fixed bugs

Before:
Blah Blah ISK 200k HAV > 1x 200k suit when we could see them

Now:
200k tank >>>>>>>>>>>> 200k suits assuming you're a scrub and don't have/know how to use effective AV tactics. Or you expect your Duvolle to kill my HAV

Before:
~~1 AV'er killing 3 tanks is OP~~ *1 AVer killing 1 HAV inside 10s from outside render distance is OP

Now:
1 tank killing squads not OP
because they've never done this before? Did you ever even play against a decent tanker?

Before:
AV should be able to SOLO! Make tanks require teamwork.

Now:
Tanks should be able to SOLO!! Make AV require teamwork.

Then:
400M range locks down entire field

Now:
lol railguns and killing infantry at 200 Ms with blasters....

400m =/= 200m. This is called basic mathematics.

Yeah, you guys never get to talk about underpowered again... ever. You have no credibility left.
two months =/= eight months. Although apparently Crimson Cerberes = Spkr4theDead.

I'm terribly sorry, but your credibility is approximately as poor as ours, if not worse.

lol@ invisible 400m fire-and-forget 2k DPS weapon 'requires skill'.

Yeah, nope.

Do you know how often people would dance in the middle of the street trying to kill me? With both forges and swarms? Had a rather low success rate, which makes sense considering my experience surviving BS AV, but the very fact that it happened?

Clearly it was somewhat successful.

Do you honestly think it makes sense for me to be running an anti-infantry turret and that you are (hypptheticaly) capable of soloing me from the middle of the road in front of me?

You might enjoy bitching and moaning (let's face it, you clearly do) but I can find you no more than two tankers that are satisfied with this current situation.

I bet you can guess who they are

Please, find me some AVers who stuck up for pilots at ANY point in the last eight months.

Then come talk to me about fucking 'hypocrisy'.

I'm done.

Enjoy your circle jerk.


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Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4933	Posted - 2014.02.21 17:38:00 - [1] - Quote I find it so funny how tankers called me a hypocrite before 1.7, and the lolUprising lol.8 happend Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4937	Posted - 2014.02.21 17:43:00 - [2] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: wow you destroyed every single one of their arguments better than i could haveGÇª+1 All in one post too. I think he beat my record. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4938	Posted - 2014.02.21 17:50:00 - [3] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Atiim wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: wow you destroyed every single one of their arguments better than i could haveGÇª+1 All in one post too. I think he beat my record. he defiantly beat mine. IT took me an entire 5 pages to destroy tankahiro before My all time record is destroying about 10 tankers in 1 post. He destroyed half their community. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4938	Posted - 2014.02.21 18:08:00 - [4] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: calisk galern wrote: really? you're actually going to try to deny his points with anecdotal evidence of how you are the magical jesus of blowing up tanks? all right then.... may I suggest video evidence of your elite tank fighting skills, I personally would enjoy watching the batman of tank fighting deal with tanks like they were your whipping boys. I'm just finishing up getting my triples in WoT. Anyone who wants live evidence of how a real AV player does it I'll show you guys how to not suck. And yet you refused to accept my evidence on how not to suck as an HAV player... Hypocrite much? And you call my posts loaded Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4943	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:17:00 - [5] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Atiim wrote: The Attorney General wrote: calisk galern wrote: really? you're actually going to try to deny his points with anecdotal evidence of how you are the magical jesus of blowing up tanks? all right then.... may I suggest video evidence of your elite tank fighting skills, I personally would enjoy watching the batman of tank fighting deal with tanks like they were your whipping boys. I'm just finishing up getting my triples in WoT. Anyone who wants live evidence of how a real AV player does it I'll show you guys how to not suck. And yet you refused to accept my evidence on how not to suck as an HAV player... Hypocrite much? And you call my posts loaded Still haven't showed up to get solo'd, so there is no evidence that you are anything other than a scrub. How about I get the muppet OP, and we can q sync an FW with you. Two birds, one stone. I already told you to send me some mail in-game last time you brought it up. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4943	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:23:00 - [6] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Someone tanking as their main thing will obviously be much better than someone that sits in the redline with a PRO rail, and scoffs at the idea of actually brawling with tanks (because they're actually pretty bad with tanks). inb4 facts Most of my Railgun kills are in CQC. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4943	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:35:00 - [7] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Before: AV is invulnerable to Tanks (rendering glitch) Now: Tanks are invulnerable to infantry and most AV overnerfed SL and fixed bugs Before: Blah Blah ISK 200k HAV > 1x 200k suit when we could see them Now: 200k tank >>>>>>>>>>>> 200k suits assuming you're a scrub and don't have/know how to use effective AV tactics. Or you expect your Duvolle to kill my HAV Before: ~~1 AV'er killing 3 tanks is OP~~ 1 AVer killing 1 HAV inside 10s from outside render distance is OP Now: 1 tank killing squads not OP because they've never done this before? Did you ever even play against a decent tanker?* Before: AV should be able to SOLO! Make tanks require teamwork. Now: Tanks should be able to SOLO!! Make AV require teamwork. Then: 400M range locks down entire field Now: lol railguns and killing infantry at 200 Ms with blasters.... 400m =/= 200m. This is called basic mathematics. Yeah, you guys never get to talk about underpowered again... ever. You have no credibility left. two months =/= eight months. Although apparently Crimson Cerberes = Spkr4theDead. I'm terribly sorry, but your credibility is approximately as poor as ours, if not worse. lol@ invisible 400m fire-and-forget 2k DPS weapon 'requires skill'. Yeah, nope. Do you know how often people would dance in the middle of the street trying to kill me? With both forges and swarms? Had a rather low success rate, which makes sense considering my experience surviving BS AV, but the very fact that it happened? Clearly it was somewhat successful. Do you honestly think it makes sense for me to be running an anti-infantry turret and that you are (hypptheticaly) capable of soloing me from the middle of the road in front of me? You might enjoy bitching and moaning (let's face it, you clearly do) but I can find you no more than two tankers that are satisfied with this current situation. I bet you can guess who they are Please, find me some AVers who stuck up for pilots at ANY point in the last eight months. Then come talk to me about fucking 'hypocrisy'. I'm done. Enjoy your circle jerk. Actually, That AVer would be me, considering how I myself have asked for a vehicle buff before 1.7. Benjamin Cisko even made a thread asking me about that. Excuse me while I proceed to talk to you about flucking 'hypocrisy' Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4948	Posted - 2014.02.21 20:35:00 - [8] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Uh... I do not remember the huge outcry from infantry when AV was getting nerfed into the ground. I do not remember people defending AV grenades, and I sure don't remember anyone have a problem with the AV grenade nerf. I do remember tankers crying non-stop about how tanks were sooo easy to kill, even though they could still kill LEGIONS of infantry then as well. Tanks were glass cannons then, they could kill a lot and die a lot. Now they just kill a lot and your community thinks everything is balanced. See OP. Read this thread. Here is a thread with AV nade defenders Here is a thread where Atiim chimesi n at the end to say everything is fine. A couple of swarms are fine in here too. This one too has people calling for buffs to swarms! Search tool is your friend. Unless you like looking stupid. Here's one of the many times I also call for a buff: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=125990&find=unread More coverage later. I'd grab more links but I like being employed Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4953	Posted - 2014.02.21 21:23:00 - [9] - Quote Salt Dog 76 wrote: Im a Proto Hvy,Fg with 20+ million sp and all your cold hard math sh!T doesn't prove crap. I solo HAV's with an Ishikone/gaston/wy and im here to tell ya it is not that hard. Usually anywere from 3 to 5 shots (3 for militia gear only noobs in a sica or soma) sometimes more but its easy. Usually never more than one clip. You have to understand that when there hardners are off they are vulnerable. Wasting your ammo on a maddy with its hardners on aint gona get you that kill dude. Plus he may try to escape if you press him to much. I dont have a recorder or id shove the dvd up your anime@ss. Maybe instead of complaining still about HAV's being Op (they are a bit but CCP is trying to start over on balancing issues with AV vs HAV's.) you should get to or 3 of your corpmates or buds together and go gank some tanks. If three of you cant get the job done....well im afraid you need more help than we can give you. Reads Post Checks Corp Tag Realizes that you tried to disproved actual math with the "leul git gud bruh" argument. Checks Corp Tag again* Realizes that your in the same corp as Spkr4TheDead & Takahiro Kashkuken Laughs So Hard Puts you on the list of people not to take seriously Leaves Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4953	Posted - 2014.02.21 21:24:00 - [10] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I assume I don't count in this? With every statement, there is an exception. I can guarantee that the OP isn't referring to ALL vehicle pilots, so If this doesn't encompass you then don't take it to heart. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4966	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:00:00 - [11] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Hmmm, who would be a better source, the muppet who quit the game and was always a crybaby, or the person who still plays and popped Bad Furry with an AV grenade? Yeah, you could always ask him if he got popped with an AV nade, or you could continue living in your imaginary world were everything AV is garbage. If you use them as supplemental damage and not like a primary weapon like scrubs used to, they are very effective. Edit: Here is a reference from said tanker himself: Linky. Actually, neither you, or BAD are a credible source for anything with such little information. Were AV grenades the only weapon you used? How much HP did BAD have left? Why was BAD close enough to be AV Grenadiered? A person also stole my HAV kill with a Freedom Mass Driver once. If you answered yes to the first question, then Mass Drivers are an AV weapon, and BAD FURRY is both bad, and should feel bad too. If you answered no to the first question, then AV weapons are not relevant, and your argument is invalid. Now lets cast the first two points aside for a moment, and face facts. One time, I went 60/0 with my HAV. Another time, my corpmate (The True Inferno) managed to transport my squad to different objectives, and survive AV whilist managing to get a decent amount of kills at the same time (26); numerous times. Did this mean that AV was balanced and pilots just needed to HTFU and adapt? No? Then don't expect the same story to pass when you tell AVers to HTFU (which does nothing but contribute to the OP's point about pilots being hypocrite, as pilots have not once adapted). Stay Classy Attorney.... Stay Classy. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4966	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:05:00 - [12] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Where did the HAV touch you? In about the same spot as Jihad Jeeps still manage to touch you Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4969	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:17:00 - [13] - Quote Takron Nistrom wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Before: Blah Blah ISK Now: 200k tank >>>>>>>>>>>> 200k suits Once again, my 200k AV suit pops tanks all day. So if you can't get it done, get some help from someone who knows what they are doing. My 500k HAV slaughtered everything and survived AV all day. So if you couldn't get it done, you should've gotten help from someone who actually knew what they were doing. Crimson Cerberes wrote: Before: 1 AV'er killing 3 tanks is OP Now: 1 tank killing squads not OP 1 AV'er denying anyone vehicles from up on a tower is probably perfectly balanced to you. And I'm also willing to be that perma-hardened vehicles removing CCP's "wave of opportunity" philosophy is also balanced. Crimson Cerberes wrote: Before: Tanks need teamwork to survive!! Now: Tanks should be able to SOLO!! Make AV require teamwork. Tanks still need a degree of teamwork, especially if you are trying to run a blaster, because any rail tank can just roll up on you and pop you. If you need either another tank or infantry to provide info, that is teamwork. Again, I am solo'ing tanks, you are just bad. I didn't need teamwork, and I still don't need teamwork now. A rail tank can pop up behind you? That's your argument? All I ever have to do is take 3 seconds to check the map to see where the enemy HAVs are at. Your incompetence is not basis for HAVs requiring teamwork. Again, I was doing fine now and before with teamwork, you are just bad. Crimson Cerberes wrote: Then: 400M range locks down entire field Now: lol railguns and killing infantry at 200 Ms with blasters.... Yeah, you guys never get to talk about underpowered again... ever. You have no credibility left. Being a poopsocker in this game is like claiming to be good at sex because you beat off all day. Willfully ignorant. Ignored. Anecdotal evidence works both ways. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4974	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:36:00 - [14] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Why should I answer your questions when you present them ahead of a false dichotomy? Until you can learn to debate without resorting to childish fallacies, there is no point in being serious with you. The only conclusion that can be drawn from your post is that you think that AV nades alone should be enough to destroy tanks. Yet another example of Atiim needing all the aiming done for him. So you were pinned and took the cheap way out. How sad. Your talking about childish fallacies? You do realize that a vast majority of your arguments involve ad-hominem, baseless assumptions and personal attacks based on a person's Corporation Status, and so many logical fallacies that my previous statement could debunk almost everything you've ever debated about..... right? Even now, you only serve to prove my point. And you claim me to be childish? Pitiful. It seems as if you missed the point, so let me re-iterate. Unless you can disprove my first statement, AV grenades are both irrelevant and usless as an AV weapon. Even for vehicle suppression. I don't need aiming to be done for me. If I did then I would have Aim Assist on and I wouldn't be able to use Railguns as well as I do (and did pre 1.7) Personally, I believe that AV Grenades should be high damaging on the following basis: AV grenades have a pitiful range. If you get close enough to be pelted by AV Grenades, you deserve the punishment for your lack of situational awareness. The tracking radii of AV Grenades is so small that you'd practically always land a hit regardless of the tracking feature Which gives me an idea. Breach AV Grenade: Extreme damage and explodes on contact, but lack a tracking feature. Hows that sound? Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4974	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:49:00 - [15] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: av grenades are useless as a primary. adds you to red star list. The truth comes out, Tech Ohm wants to not give up an anti infantry weapon but he still wants to smash vehicles. Somebody wants the best of both worlds. Why do vehicles get the best of both worlds? Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4974	Posted - 2014.02.22 00:56:00 - [16] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Clearly you have never tanked. Although, if you think you have the best of both worlds, I challenge you to run a blaster tank in a match versus me. We will then see how well you can handle tanks AND infantry. 1. 20GJ Particle Cannons 2. XT-1 Missile Launchers 3. Grab Damage Modifiers if necessary. 4. Slaughter both Infantry, AV, and vehicles alike. 5. Profit. But apparently it's all about that 80GJ Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub AFK No seriously. My lunch break's over now. :(
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4980	Posted - 2014.02.22 01:17:00 - [17] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: So you think AV nades should be able to destroy vehicles by themselves? I find AV nades to be excellent supplemental damage to my forge. Not my fault if you don't know how to get in close and fight tanks. If you want AV nades to be enough to destroy vehicles, then you are asking to be able to carry a primary anti infantry weapon and still have an effective AV option. You try and deride tankers for allegedly wanting that very thing. Then you talk about hypocrisy right? inb4 Facts. Every practically every last one of my 'AV' kills have always been in CQC. Even with my Particle Cannon. If you use a Forge Gun, on a Heavy Frame, why did BAD FURRY allow you to get so close to him? You move at 3m/s FFS. I guess his name is BAD FURRY for a reason. Seems as if you missed my point once more. My idea for a Breach AV grenade would basically be the equivalent to what a Flux Grenade does to Gunnlogies. Not straight up kill, but definitely leave them running with a tail between your legs. Didn't you yourself say that if AV grenades didn't have a tracking feature, they could deal the same amount of damage as Flux Grenades? inb4 Even More Facts The Attorney General will be the first to call for a Minmatar Commando nerf. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4980	Posted - 2014.02.22 01:20:00 - [18] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: In order to support your argument, you would have to do it solo. If you think that fit survives against a rail, you haven't met a real tanker. Stop pretending. Then please explain DUST Fiend's YouTube channel. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4999	Posted - 2014.02.22 02:09:00 - [19] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Unless you prove yourself somewhere as a tanker, I wouldn't go slandering your betters. When you are hiding in the redline, afraid of my forge, you will understand that Furry has more heart and skill than you. If you think that heavies are meant to walk up to tanks, you clearly haven't been reading about how AV is done. LAV, AV or Flux and the Forge, you use all three. If you don't mitigate the weaknesses of your suit, you are not doing it right. Finally, I made no such statement, although I support it in theory. Stop spending so much time on the forums, and get in game so I can solo you. So now BAD allowed an LAV to sneak up on him? I guess that would fly, but isn't BAD a dedicated tanker? And don't dedicated tankers have SP into the Proficiency Skill at V which should offer better turning capabilities? Even if he didn't, he would still have to stop in order to have allowed you to chuck AV grenades at him. And wouldn't he also have to already be nearly dead for the AV grenades to work on him? Or did he allow you to jump out and charge your FG and fire at him repeatedly? But wouldn't a Complex Armor Repairer have already repped his HP back in the time it would take to jump him in a LAV in the first place? Something in your story doesn't quite check out. I do strictly remember you saying that, but I won't waste my time digging through GD if you agree with the idea. I'm not at my home atm, so unfortunately I can't. Send me some mail about what time is convenient for you and I'll be happy to tomorrow. The weakness of the Minmatar Assault is literal weakness, and the fact that it has the defense and Anti-Infantry power of a Starter Fit. I guess mitigating it's weakness would be going on a tower where my weakness wouldn't hinder me right? According to your logic, yes. Ironically that also makes you a scrub according to your logic. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5005	Posted - 2014.02.22 02:44:00 - [20] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: This is how I know you were never any good at AV. You don't go to where the tank is, you go where the tank is going to be. You don't let them get away, that is why you park the LAV behind them. That forces them to either go over it, crash through it, or go forward, all while you are nading and then charging up a forge. That you think a tank has to be stopped before you can nade them shows that you have never fought up close with tanks, which is understandable given your obvious lack of skills. I can't believe that you need this stuff explained to you, and you call yourself an AV'er. Also, proficiency on the turrets only affects the turret turn rate, not the tanks. Didn't you ever hear about knowing your enemy? If you don't know tanks, how do you think you are ready to hunt them? Ah. So now BAD is lacking situation awareness? How pitiful. From the way your riding him I'd think he was much better than that. An HAV doesn't need to be stopped before you use your AV grenades, but unless you have your sensitivity jacked up to 100 (which I highly doubt considering you were using a FG), you wouldn't be able to get the proper arc needed to throw the AV grenades at a moving HAV, whilst charging a FG shot before he got away. Yep. Despite investing vast amounts of SP into my Limbus build, and with all my time using Swarm Launchers I definitely have never fought an HAV in CQC. Thanks for contributing to my earlier point. That was the point. It affects turret rotation speed, so he should have been able turn around and kill you. Especially if you hopped out and charging a FG in a Heavy Frame.. Unless you expect me to believe that you threw AV grenades at BAD with perfect accuracy, whilst also charging a Forge Gun with apparently no resistance from BAD whatsoever. I don't know tanks huh? That's kinda funny considering how I was a tanker before an AVer, but okay. I'll leave you with this TL;DR: Atiim wrote: Cool Story Bro. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5006	Posted - 2014.02.22 02:56:00 - [21] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Your idea about the minmatar frame is a little strange. How is it weak? It has five high slots with which to pack on shield extenders. Not to mention the current skill that gives you a better sidearm capacity to deal with infantry. Unless you are running 5 damage mods, in which case you are pretty scrubby, but go and hide on a tower, makes no difference to me. I can see you up there now, you won't be a threat for long. You could offset the suits lower hp by actually running modules for health instead of trying to squeeze out the last possible damage out of the swarms, but you choose to not do that. Don't complain about your fit when you could make it better. I already sent you and Crimson mails. Lets see what excuses you have for ducking this tomorrow. Let's see here: 3x Complex Damage Mods 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher (The Specialist variant isn't worth the long charge tbh) The 3 Damage Mods is about 204CPU, plus the 118CPU from the SL means that you have 392 CPU eaten before you even get into fitting your sidearm or AV/Flux Grenades, couple that with the fact that you have to put CPU Enhancers in your low slots (392 CPU doesn't fit well with a Minmatar Assault suit, and at best you'll be able to fit an extra 2 Basic Shield Extenders. An extra 44HP?... Wow that's so strong Lol Sidearms. What's the range of Kaalikiota RR again? Now what's the range of an Ishukone ASMG? Gee, sidearms are so helpful. Now I've made some pretty damn stupid posts before, but you sir clearly take the cake on this one. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5081	Posted - 2014.02.24 14:33:00 - [22] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: calisk galern wrote: this is still going O.o Yeah, I thought it'd either be dead or locked by now. Guess not? Wonder if those guys ended up having their showdown? I'm a bit surprised too. I guess Lockingbro has the day off. Anyways, no we haven't because I'm still eating for him to reply. Atiim (Gunnlogi - 80GJ Particle Cannon) Tank Scrub I've adapted, and soon I will HTFU... ...Permanently. In a Gunnlogi