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BLACKEST GUY
WarRavens League of Infamy
8
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Posted - 2014.02.15 19:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now before you start yelling "Why would you ever equip two rep tools?", let me explain.
With the new Logistics bonuses coming in 1.8, the Min Logi sort of gets jibbed with the bonus to its equipment: the Repair Tool. So I think to compensate for this kind of crappy bonus, the repair tool should be able to repair both armor OR shield. Since the repair tool doesn't have/need an Aim Down Sight, I was think of having the L1 button repair shield. That's pretty much it. Now before you start complaining on how heavies and people with a Logi repping them with both R1 and L1 pressed will be invincible, let me explain a LITTLE further. The Tool will have the intended repair/recharge rate if used solely on armor of shields. But when both are pressed, the repair/recharge rate is split in half. So even with a proto Min Logi and a core repair tool would not be able to keep another player at full health during an intense firefight.
Here's an example on how useful it would be:
You are a Logi with the dual repair tool and have a Caldari Assault who just finished killing a red, but not with out eating up his shields. You scan and notice there is another red dot coming towards. Knowing that caldari is shield based and his armor is that high you go to rep him with the tool. Instead of repping his armor, which will do him no good because they aren't that much and weren't depleted, you shield recharge him using L1. Now he is ready to take on that second red dot.
So guys and gals, tell me what you guys think about this. Should it be implemented? |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
351
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Posted - 2014.02.15 20:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Like it. |
Justice Darling
Themis Argonauts
32
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Posted - 2014.02.15 20:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 |
Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
218
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is an interesting idea, one which I'm not necessarily against. But I suppose it moreover comes down to the question of whether or not Shield and Armor Repair-Tools should be separate equipment. But given how Dust is built around the idea of squad-dependence, and given how 1.8's suit changes seem to be pushing most roles back towards this idea, I'm leaning more towards them being separate equipment (since that promotes even more diversity and role-specialization). Anyway, in terms of your idea, I would recommend having the standard rep-tool only able to heal either armor or shields, not both at once. But then offer variants that can simultaneously heal both at a reduced rate, and/or with some other penalty.
Also, your title might just be a little misleading, FYI.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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Meee One
The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day
339
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1
Only users lose drugs.
Time wounds all heels.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
615
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1, its just useless as shields have next to no HP when compared to armor
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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BLACKEST GUY
WarRavens League of Infamy
14
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:This is an interesting idea, one which I'm not necessarily against. But I suppose it moreover comes down to the question of whether or not Shield and Armor Repair-Tools should be separate equipment. But given how Dust is built around the idea of squad-dependence, and given how 1.8's suit changes seem to be pushing most roles back towards this idea, I'm leaning more towards them being separate equipment (since that promotes even more diversity and role-specialization). Anyway, in terms of your idea, I would recommend having the standard rep-tool only able to heal either armor or shields, not both at once. But then offer variants that can simultaneously heal both at a reduced rate, and/or with some other penalty.
Also, your title might just be a little misleading, FYI.
Thanks for the feedback Summ.
The only problem with having them as separate equipment is going to be the whining of many players saying they can't be a great support logi because I have to carry two rep tools and can't fit my hives/ scanner/ injector etc. I do like your idea about having variants though. It would offer more diversity to the game.
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BLACKEST GUY
WarRavens League of Infamy
14
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:+1, its just useless as shields have next to no HP when compared to armor
LOL I know right.
But this is just an idea if CCP decides to buff shields in 1.8.
Or in the next expansion.
Or ever.
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a brackers
Nex Miles Militis
3
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nice idea but I think repping on Shields should be slightly less efficient (90%) than armor as generally Shields have less hp than armor. Alternatively, as Shields are energy, it could also be so the shield repair instantly reps Shields, but requires a 5 -10 second (varys depending on how much shield it just repaired) recharge time after repping.
Proto dropship pilot
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
219
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
BLACKEST GUY wrote:Thanks for the feedback Summ.
The only problem with having them as separate equipment is going to be the whining of many players saying they can't be a great support logi because I have to carry two rep tools and can't fit my hives/ scanner/ injector etc. I do like your idea about having variants though. It would offer more diversity to the game. I can somewhat see your point. I mean like I said, I'm not necessarily against the idea. As an incredibly minor point, it would make at least a little more sense from a lore perspective to introduce this idea, as Minmatar tend to have the ability to either armor, shield, or dual tank.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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BLACKEST GUY
WarRavens League of Infamy
14
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Posted - 2014.02.15 23:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Nice idea but I think repping on Shields should be slightly less efficient (90%) than armor as generally Shields have less hp than armor. Alternatively, as Shields are energy, it could also be so the shield repair instantly reps Shields, but requires a 5 -10 second (varys depending on how much shield it just repaired) recharge time after repping.
The efficiency penalty is actually a great idea, just I don't think I would go as far 90%, I think it would be nice at 70-80%. Mostly because you still want it to be a little viable.
As for your alternative, I don't think so. I think with that idea, it would be confusing for CCP to explain exactly how it works and for player to learn how to use it. In my way, it would be simple because it works exactly like the normal rep tool just using one more button as a secondary function. |
a brackers
Nex Miles Militis
3
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Posted - 2014.02.15 23:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
BLACKEST GUY wrote:a brackers wrote:Nice idea but I think repping on Shields should be slightly less efficient (90%) than armor as generally Shields have less hp than armor. Alternatively, as Shields are energy, it could also be so the shield repair instantly reps Shields, but requires a 5 -10 second (varys depending on how much shield it just repaired) recharge time after repping. The efficiency penalty is actually a great idea, just I don't think I would go as far 90%, I think it would be nice at 70-80%. Mostly because you still want it to be a little viable. As for your alternative, I don't think so. I think with that idea, it would be confusing for CCP to explain exactly how it works and for player to learn how to use it. In my way, it would be simple because it works exactly like the normal rep tool just using one more button as a secondary function.
Yh maybe your right about the alternative, and by 90% I meant it would rep Shields at a 90% rate of armor.
E.g. Say the armor part repped at 50/second the shield part should rep at 45/second
when used together they would rep 25/sec armour and 22.5/sec shield.
ps. I know 50/sec is wrong but it made my maths easier
Proto dropship pilot
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Sir Snugglz
Red Star. EoN.
403
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Posted - 2014.02.15 23:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Repair tool 'repairs' things that are 'damaged' Shields do not get 'damaged' they 'deplete' therefore you will need a 'recharge' tool.
And it will probably be a Caldari equipment... min shouldn't waste their time with technology that's ahead of theirs. lol. I hope this makes sense. Love the idea though.
-Luck is just one of my skills
Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
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DMH Bond
Dust OMEGA corp
26
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Posted - 2014.02.16 02:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure Zero-Day
650
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Posted - 2014.02.16 03:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
A few thoughts: 1. Why bother with a separate button? It seems reasonable to me that it could just do armor first, then restore shields when the armor is full. EHP is EHP and it'll be simpler for the kiddies, and in the hypothetical of a high-shield, low-armor repair target, it doesn't really have any drawbacks. 2. What if the restore rate on shields was related to the suit's inherent shield regen? The rep tool could "energize" the shields, providing additional regen equal to 50-100% (numbers, whatever) of the suit's base rate. I'm thinking of it as the repair tool just streaming its raw powergrid output into the suit's shields, enhancing their regeneration but unable to just directly "add" shields. The additional regen shouldn't be interrupted by taking fire. |
Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University Ivy League
303
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Posted - 2014.02.16 04:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Can't support. DUST needs to be as much like EVE as possible to be successful, and to that end, shield reps need to be a different piece of equipment from armor reps.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
222
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Posted - 2014.02.16 04:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:Can't support. DUST needs to be as much like EVE as possible to be successful, and to that end, shield reps need to be a different piece of equipment from armor reps. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about having two separate rep-tools. But why does Dust need to be as much like Eve as possible to be successful?
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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BLACKEST GUY
WarRavens League of Infamy
19
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bump |
Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University Ivy League
321
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:Can't support. DUST needs to be as much like EVE as possible to be successful, and to that end, shield reps need to be a different piece of equipment from armor reps. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about having two separate rep-tools. But why does Dust need to be as much like Eve as possible to be successful?
I guess this is something I say over and over, but no one has really asked me directly. Here's my gut feelings, and I can reason something more substantial later.
Integration - CCP marketed and sold DUST as a part of the New Eden universe with EVE integration. It follows that to accomplish that, DUST should follow the concepts, patterns, and mechanics of EVE as closely as an FPS can. That will all smoother integration, and smoother integration will allow for more cross platform game play.
Familiarity - DUST has ENORMOUS free marketing in the EVE player base. When those players come to try out DUST, they should have a familiar experience. If the experience is reminiscent of EVE, those players will be able to dive into DUST and hit the ground running.
Solid Foundation - CCP is in a unique position having DUST be inter-connected with EVE. They don't need to build a new game, they have the foundation there in EVE (again, just adjust some things to make it work in an FPS.)
How's that?
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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843 nerfnut96
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
213
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
I don't completely object to this but i would almost rather see shield transporters be a separate equipment.
Capt. Nerfnut96 // Ranking Officer // War Director // Burgezz ETF
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The Robot Devil
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1675
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Posted - 2014.02.19 03:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have had a suit with two armor reps on it. One for short distance hard reps and one for long distance dual reps. It was handy but is have dropped the hard rep and only carry the long dual now.
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus."
Raoul Duke
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D34NOS MAZDA
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men.
313
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Posted - 2014.02.19 08:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
If there is a recharge tool or what ever, then shields will be OP. They recharge automatically when depleted at a decent rate already, compared to armour that you need to have a repair module fitted. This is currently the balancing factor between armour & shields.
If a recharge tool comes in then the automatic recharge will need to be reduced to say 5 or 10 per sec to keep the balance. |
Ronan Elsword
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
180
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 10:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Instead of recharging the shields, I'd have it cancel, or lower the delay sending more power to the shield systems.
However nanites don't do that so it would probably have to be something like the Core Focused that cost a lot of pg/cpu and has a short range. This would be due to the added technology (I'd think this would be closer to Caldari tech)
"War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."
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SteelheadPep
SAM-MIK
35
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Posted - 2014.02.19 14:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think the rep bonus is the best of that nerf, Considering changing just for that. Use the rep tool almost exclusively and die way to much for using it, but that is a support logis destiny. |
Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
210
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Posted - 2014.02.19 16:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
BLACKEST GUY wrote:Now before you start yelling "Why would you ever equip two rep tools?", let me explain. With the new Logistics bonuses most likely coming in 1.8, the Min Logi sort of gets jibbed with the bonus to its equipment: the Repair Tool. So I think to compensate for this crappy bonus, the repair tool should be able to repair both armor OR/ AND shield. Since the repair tool doesn't have/need an Aim Down Sight, I was think of having the L1 button repair shield. That's pretty much it. Now before you start complaining on how heavies and people with a Logi repping them with both R1 and L1 pressed will be invincible, let me explain a LITTLE further. The Tool will have the intended repair/recharge rate if used solely on armor or shields. But when both are pressed, the repair/recharge rate is split in half and another stream would come out in a different color. So even with a proto Min Logi and a core repair tool would not be able to keep another player at full health during an intense firefight. Here's an example on how useful it would be: You are a Logi with the dual repair tool and have a Caldari Assault who just finished killing a red, but not with out eating up his shields. You scan and notice there is another red dot coming towards. Knowing that caldari is shield based and his armor isn't that high you go to rep him with the tool. Instead of repping his armor, which will do him no good because they aren't that much and weren't depleted, you shield recharge him using L1. Now he is ready to take on that second red dot. So guys and gals, tell me what you guys think about this. Should it be implemented? Counter idea: You don't recharge the shield. Instead, you apply an effect to the shields of the player - Either multiplying their regeneration or kickstarting the regeneration (i.e. cancelling regen delay). I don't know which is better, but flat out repairing shields really goes against the duality of armor and shields.
Shields are supposed to be the "independant" playstyle that allows effectively unlimited HP as long as you remember to keep cover. Armor is supposed the tanking type that actually plays the tank and juggernaut, but is slowly dimished even with passive rep. Reppers basically cancel the weakness of armor, which is the fact that they can't regenerate quickly. So having reppers cancel regen delay on shields is perfect, as it cancels the weakness that is supposed to be inherent to extended shields. It also means that reppers behave differently for both tanking types - Staying on target with armor, while just giving a quick infusion to shields.
Generally, I'm against anything that homogenizes the behaviour of the tanking types. |
Komodo Jones
Chaotik Serenity
513
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cool idea! but a shield recharger would have to be handled more delicately, picture this.
Caldari sentinel at the end of the hall with a big ass gun stopping anyone from approaching, you have your shield recharger connected to him, the enemy gets the bright idea to all come out at once and put him under a constant stream of bullets, they overpower the speed of your shield recharger until...only his shields are down, in which case he still has plenty of armor to survive getting around the corner while his shields are still getting recharged and minimizing damage to armor, just a plain shield healer would make someone nearly un-killable because if even if it's over powered by gunfire he would still be alive, unlike the armor repairer.
There should definitely be a way to heal shields from an outside source, but to make sure it's not completely unbalanced I think it should be an instant shield regenerator, similar to the shield booster for vehicles, or I guess just have the shield recharging tool overload when their shields are fully depleted or something
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
557
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Posted - 2014.02.20 03:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
There is alot of potential in these ideas. All I can really say is that I would like some option to help out my Caldari and other shield tanked team members.
The Logi Code. The Path of the Logibro
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CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
718
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Posted - 2014.02.20 03:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Yes we most certainly should have a shield repair / shield energy transfer tool.
To the people saying it would be over powered, no it would not be. It does not matter if you transfer to shield or armour - the friendly target will recieve a certain amount of HP every second, regardless. It makes no difference if it goes to the shield hp pool or the armour hp pool does it.
Besides the Caldari heavy will be at a great loss without a shield repair tool. Also guys we used to have shield repair tools, they were called shield logi LAV`s. Not many people used them but I did and while it was great, it was not overpowered in any sense. |
Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
216
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Posted - 2014.02.20 09:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Yes we most certainly should have a shield repair / shield energy transfer tool.
To the people saying it would be over powered, no it would not be. It does not matter if you transfer to shield or armour - the friendly target will recieve a certain amount of HP every second, regardless. It makes no difference if it goes to the shield hp pool or the armour hp pool does it.
Besides the Caldari heavy will be at a great loss without a shield repair tool. Also guys we used to have shield repair tools, they were called shield logi LAV`s. Not many people used them but I did and while it was great, it was not overpowered in any sense. Balance is really not an argument in this. Variety, however, is. Don't make shields more like armor. Make them more like shields. A simple shield repper is a no-go. It has to work differently from the armor repper. |
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
729
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Posted - 2014.02.21 11:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Yes we most certainly should have a shield repair / shield energy transfer tool.
To the people saying it would be over powered, no it would not be. It does not matter if you transfer to shield or armour - the friendly target will recieve a certain amount of HP every second, regardless. It makes no difference if it goes to the shield hp pool or the armour hp pool does it.
Besides the Caldari heavy will be at a great loss without a shield repair tool. Also guys we used to have shield repair tools, they were called shield logi LAV`s. Not many people used them but I did and while it was great, it was not overpowered in any sense. Balance is really not an argument in this. Variety, however, is. Don't make shields more like armor. Make them more like shields. A simple shield repper is a no-go. It has to work differently from the armor repper.
Please explain to me why a shield repair tool is a no go as you put it?
I hope you realise in EVE there are both shield and armour remote repairs.
The shield "transfer" gives shield at the start of its cycle. The Armour repair - repairs armour at the end of its cycle as it delivers more HP (I am totally up for keeping in line with EVE parameters.)
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
217
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Posted - 2014.02.21 11:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Please explain to me why a shield repair tool is a no go as you put it?
Because both tanking types having a flat repair tool lowers customizability and variety in terms of gameplay. Shields and armor should play differently.
Quote: I hope you realise in EVE there are both shield and armour remote repairs.
The shield "transfer" gives shield at the start of its cycle. The Armour repair - repairs armour at the end of its cycle as it delivers more HP (I am totally up for keeping in line with EVE parameters.)
"Make it mechanically like EVE" is not an argument. "Make it stylistically like EVE" is, but I don't know how you would transfer that cycle thing into an FPS system. What is the difference between the beginning and end of a repair cycle? |
Mordecai Sanguine
What The French Red Whines
462
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Posted - 2014.02.21 12:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
BLACKEST GUY wrote:Now before you start yelling "Why would you ever equip two rep tools?", let me explain. With the new Logistics bonuses most likely coming in 1.8, the Min Logi sort of gets jibbed with the bonus to its equipment: the Repair Tool. So I think to compensate for this crappy bonus, the repair tool should be able to repair both armor OR/ AND shield. Since the repair tool doesn't have/need an Aim Down Sight, I was think of having the L1 button repair shield. That's pretty much it. Now before you start complaining on how heavies and people with a Logi repping them with both R1 and L1 pressed will be invincible, let me explain a LITTLE further. The Tool will have the intended repair/recharge rate if used solely on armor or shields. But when both are pressed, the repair/recharge rate is split in half and another stream would come out in a different color. So even with a proto Min Logi and a core repair tool would not be able to keep another player at full health during an intense firefight. Here's an example on how useful it would be: You are a Logi with the dual repair tool and have a Caldari Assault who just finished killing a red, but not with out eating up his shields. You scan and notice there is another red dot coming towards. Knowing that caldari is shield based and his armor isn't that high you go to rep him with the tool. Instead of repping his armor, which will do him no good because they aren't that much and weren't depleted, you shield recharge him using L1. Now he is ready to take on that second red dot. So guys and gals, tell me what you guys think about this. Should it be implemented?
No. Totally sucks Gamebreaking. Repair tool is...a repair tool. Not a "shield/protection" tool. Learn the diffrence and wait for a new equipement called "shield/protection" tool.
"Minmatarr logi bonus sucks" => With the Level 5 bonus Repair tool is going to be even more powerful than now. While general TTk is going to decrease.
You see ? You're going to repair even better than now while ennemies will deal less damage.
And you want EVEN MORE POWEFUL ???? Dude that's already pretty nasty don't you think ? And Heavy is going to be even more resistant. I REALLY don't think repair tool need any buff or modification. And "double" repair tool is pretty stupid wasting a slot.
Just ait a little i'm SURE CCP will a day make a repair tool ONLY for shield. But right now your idea is...not balanced at all.
You think it's balanced because you "mix" old (weapons damage,rifles problem) with new numbers (Equipeent "nerf"). But you seems to forget general TTk is decreasing and the fact a Minmatarr with repair tool is going to be even more powerful than before. Creating specialized roles and not just "I'M A GOD WITH EVERUTHINGGGGG".
Assault and Heavy / commandos is getting the same. => Specialized roles for each races.
All of you people need to see far after ten meters. You need to see what it's going to be in 3/4 months. A damn huge better game. |
Piraten Hovnoret
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
343
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Posted - 2014.02.21 15:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
No
However I would be fine with a shield reptool
So if the logi wants to rep both he have to swap and sacrifice one more equipment slot. This would follow the genaral rule that if you want somthing you need to sacrifice a slot to get it
Regards
War never changes
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