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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
447
   |
Posted - 2014.02.14 18:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sure I'll give it a shot:
1) ScR is only OP with a turbo controller or way above average clicking speed (average being around 5 clicks per second). This would lead to less DPS than any other rifle, making it the only sub-400 rifle.
2) The overheating function is unique to the ScR, and can/does kill the user. This is a MAJOR drawback that prevents spamming it. This function nicely balances out the charge shot.
3) The fitting requirements are ridiculously high.
4) Actually the ScR is just plain bad on non-amarr assault suits. After 1 engagement, if you didn't overheat and die, you will overheat and die. Seriously, this weapon is borderline horrible on non-assault suits.
Question for the OP, did you mean to say the ScR is OP with turbo controllers on an amarr assault? If so, I agree, and the ScR needs only a RoF reduction to 400 RPM (max of 6.666 shots per second or around the same base DPS as the other rifles at max).
Oh, just to throw this out here:
The CR:
Does 50% more DPS than the other rifles
Does 102.5% normalized damage
Has insanely low fitting costs
Never Overheats
can kill suits in 4-6 shots rather than the 5-8 of your ScR experience, try it.
I can always tell when I die in my sentinel suit to a combat rifle because it happens way faster than to any other weapon.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
449
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 19:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Sure I'll give it a shot:
1) ScR is only OP with a turbo controller or way above average clicking speed (average being around 5 clicks per second). This would lead to less DPS than any other rifle, making it the only sub-400 rifle.
2) The overheating function is unique to the ScR, and can/does kill the user. This is a MAJOR drawback that prevents spamming it. This function nicely balances out the charge shot.
3) The fitting requirements are ridiculously high.
4) Actually the ScR is just plain bad on non-amarr assault suits. After 1 engagement, if you didn't overheat and die, you will overheat and die. Seriously, this weapon is borderline horrible on non-assault suits.
Question for the OP, did you mean to say the ScR is OP with turbo controllers on an amarr assault? If so, I agree, and the ScR needs only a RoF reduction to 400 RPM (max of 6.666 shots per second or around the same base DPS as the other rifles at max).
Oh, just to throw this out here:
The CR:
Does 50% more DPS than the other rifles
Does 102.5% normalized damage
Has insanely low fitting costs
Never Overheats
can kill suits in 4-6 shots rather than the 5-8 of your ScR experience, try it.
I can always tell when I die in my sentinel suit to a combat rifle because it happens way faster than to any other weapon. 1. Good trigger finger is free. 2. Not on Amarr Assault 3. Amarr Assault has huge CPU/PG, as downside suit has fat hitbox/slow speed (irrelevant at long range) 4. True CR is the only close rival to SR.
No:
1) Like I said, if you were to claim to need to nerf the RoF, I am on board. Not everyone CAN click so fast, but every CAN buy a turbo controller. This point i concede, as I did earlier.
2) No, it is ONLY a balanced weapon on amarr assaults, it SUCKS on other suits. On an amarr assault, I can fire 25 times before overheat, or 16 after a charged shot. This is a total of between 1370 and 1800 damage (lower value with a charged shot), followed by at lest 5 seconds of NOTHING. This takes me about 4 seconds to pull off. If you fire faster you also fire less due to how overheating works.
For comparison
ScR: 1800 damage in 4 seconds followed by 50 damage to user and helplessness for 5 seconds(way less without 2.5 mil sp in amarrian assault suits, and wearing an amarrian assault suit)
CR: 1728 damage in 2.7 followed by >2.6 sec reload
AR: 2040 damage in 4.8 seconds followed by >3 second reload
RR: 2310 damage in 5.45 secs followed by >3.2 sec reload
3)Amarr assault has -1 slot from the other suits, a larger hit-box, it is slower, and has marginally more (30 ehp lol). Unless you use the ScR, the amarr assault is horrible.
No, CR completely STOMPS the ScR. IT does 131% more damage per trigger pull, it does 95/110 damage to shields/armor (meaning more or less no weakness), It cost less PG to fit at proto than the ScR does at basic, it has a nicer scope even though it has less range, it doesn't ever overheat, it doesn't kill the user.
CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScR
and it is not even close.
ScR requires skill, as in if you miss just a few shots, you are dead. ScR requires an amarrian assault suit, no other weapon REQUIRES a specific race's specialized suit to work competitively.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
449
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 19:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:This argument comes up in all FPS. The reward for the high powered, simi auto, med-long range rifle. This class of rifle is deadly for two reasons:
Stats
Type of player that uses it
The biggest difference I see in this version of this class of rifle in the ScR is the mag size and the over all ammo capacity, which both are too high. Other than that, RoF/accuacy/range/damage are all in line with what the class should be. The TAC AR would be there also if CCP hadn't swung the hammer too far with the RoF. 480 is the magic number, not because of some DPS statistic, because that is the high end of what a skilled trigger finger can pull off. Go much higher and you are asking for modded controllers to do what a human can't. Lower it and you're selling players that favor, and have often spent time in FPS games developing skills to use them, short.
If you pick up an ScR and do well with it, congratulations, you are good by way of natural skills or hours of experience. Most players that have a more casual style of play or not as many hours behind the controller do not do good with this class of weapon. If they did, everyone would be running around with the ScR instead of the RR, and would've been using the ScR over the AR build last.
As for the combination with the amar assault, that belongs in a bigger discussion around rewarding lore. Personally, I don't think the amar bonus is bad, I think the rest of the assault bonuses suck. But I think the story behind this game adds an extra welcome dimension to the game that doesn't as much trump balance as make it more interesting.
About that large clip:
Actually the clip size is 100% meaningless for the ScR when you overheat after only a few shots. Effectively the ScR has a ~ 16 round clip and the amarr assault give you a 5% bonus to clip size. Only when you expend this clip too fast you take 50 HP damage and you are useless for 5 seconds.
I am going to attempt to figure out the ScR heat/cooldown interactions so look for that in the future.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:This argument comes up in all FPS. The reward for the high powered, simi auto, med-long range rifle. This class of rifle is deadly for two reasons:
Stats
Type of player that uses it
The biggest difference I see in this version of this class of rifle in the ScR is the mag size and the over all ammo capacity, which both are too high. Other than that, RoF/accuacy/range/damage are all in line with what the class should be. The TAC AR would be there also if CCP hadn't swung the hammer too far with the RoF. 480 is the magic number, not because of some DPS statistic, because that is the high end of what a skilled trigger finger can pull off. Go much higher and you are asking for modded controllers to do what a human can't. Lower it and you're selling players that favor, and have often spent time in FPS games developing skills to use them, short.
If you pick up an ScR and do well with it, congratulations, you are good by way of natural skills or hours of experience. Most players that have a more casual style of play or not as many hours behind the controller do not do good with this class of weapon. If they did, everyone would be running around with the ScR instead of the RR, and would've been using the ScR over the AR build last.
As for the combination with the amar assault, that belongs in a bigger discussion around rewarding lore. Personally, I don't think the amar bonus is bad, I think the rest of the assault bonuses suck. But I think the story behind this game adds an extra welcome dimension to the game that doesn't as much trump balance as make it more interesting. About that large clip: Actually the clip size is 100% meaningless for the ScR when you overheat after only a few shots. Effectively the ScR has a ~ 16 round clip and the amarr assault give you a 5% bonus to clip size. Only when you expend this clip too fast you take 50 HP damage and you are useless for 5 seconds. I am going to attempt to figure out the ScR heat/cooldown interactions so look for that in the future. I disagree, reloading is something every other rifle has to do between most engagements. This is 2 + seconds that that player cannot sprint. The majority of my kills I do in under 10 shots which means I go 4 to 6 engagements without having to reload. Only a hand full of times have I ever lived long enough to run out of ammo. With op 5 on the rifle, you wait way less than 2 seconds before you've cooled enough to squeeze off another 4 to 8 rounds. Granted, this takes practice but if we are talking about where the rifle can yield to some balance, mag size would be my vote.
Did you understand my arguement above? Perhaps I didn;t make it clear, let me rephrase.
*ScR has a heat budget that is equivalent to a clip on another rifle.
*ScR's heat bank is effectively it's clip
*ScR's clip size means nothing when you can at most shoot 16 (25 on assault) shots, meaning it has an effective clip of 16 (25 on assault).
*You "reload" the ScR by allowing it to cooldown. Effectively the ScR has a 4.5 sec reload time.
*You are effectively reloading every time you have to let the gun cool down
Take your pick.
Also, on every other weapon you can still sprint during a reload, you just cancel the reload. On the ScR, when you overheat you die.
Finally, why are you using the ScR. If you used the CR the majority of your kills would die in under 8 trigger pulls, with 10 trigger pulls left to spare. You would also be doing that damage at a faster rate with a more favorable damage profile.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Sure I'll give it a shot:
1) ScR is only OP with a turbo controller or way above average clicking speed (average being around 5 clicks per second). This would lead to less DPS than any other rifle, making it the only sub-400 rifle.
2) The overheating function is unique to the ScR, and can/does kill the user. This is a MAJOR drawback that prevents spamming it. This function nicely balances out the charge shot.
3) The fitting requirements are ridiculously high.
4) Actually the ScR is just plain bad on non-amarr assault suits. After 1 engagement, if you didn't overheat and die, you will overheat and die. Seriously, this weapon is borderline horrible on non-assault suits.
Question for the OP, did you mean to say the ScR is OP with turbo controllers on an amarr assault? If so, I agree, and the ScR needs only a RoF reduction to 400 RPM (max of 6.666 shots per second or around the same base DPS as the other rifles at max).
Oh, just to throw this out here:
The CR:
Does 50% more DPS than the other rifles
Does 102.5% normalized damage
Has insanely low fitting costs
Never Overheats
can kill suits in 4-6 shots rather than the 5-8 of your ScR experience, try it.
I can always tell when I die in my sentinel suit to a combat rifle because it happens way faster than to any other weapon. 400 bpm is the equivalent of 12th notes (triplets) at 120bpm. This is too slow. I can easily achieve 16th notes at 120bpm or 480 rpm. I can burst out a higher rate than that, but not sustain. I would hope that an easily achievable physical skill wouldn't be nerfed. http://youtu.be/n0ty2WZ82k8 <-- Trigger finger video in game
What is easy for you is not easy for everyone. Search the web, seems like the majority of people click slower than 5 times per second. How high should the advantage for faster clicking be? Why shouldn't i just buy a modded controller so I can be "better" than everyone else because a few physical freaks can also achieve this?
World record for clicking is like 14+ per second, so I guess because one dude can click that fast, we should balance around that. Then everyone will be forced to buy a modded controller to be competitive with that one guy.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:This argument comes up in all FPS. The reward for the high powered, simi auto, med-long range rifle. This class of rifle is deadly for two reasons:
Stats
Type of player that uses it
The biggest difference I see in this version of this class of rifle in the ScR is the mag size and the over all ammo capacity, which both are too high. Other than that, RoF/accuacy/range/damage are all in line with what the class should be. The TAC AR would be there also if CCP hadn't swung the hammer too far with the RoF. 480 is the magic number, not because of some DPS statistic, because that is the high end of what a skilled trigger finger can pull off. Go much higher and you are asking for modded controllers to do what a human can't. Lower it and you're selling players that favor, and have often spent time in FPS games developing skills to use them, short.
If you pick up an ScR and do well with it, congratulations, you are good by way of natural skills or hours of experience. Most players that have a more casual style of play or not as many hours behind the controller do not do good with this class of weapon. If they did, everyone would be running around with the ScR instead of the RR, and would've been using the ScR over the AR build last.
As for the combination with the amar assault, that belongs in a bigger discussion around rewarding lore. Personally, I don't think the amar bonus is bad, I think the rest of the assault bonuses suck. But I think the story behind this game adds an extra welcome dimension to the game that doesn't as much trump balance as make it more interesting. About that large clip: Actually the clip size is 100% meaningless for the ScR when you overheat after only a few shots. Effectively the ScR has a ~ 16 round clip and the amarr assault give you a 5% bonus to clip size. Only when you expend this clip too fast you take 50 HP damage and you are useless for 5 seconds. I am going to attempt to figure out the ScR heat/cooldown interactions so look for that in the future. I disagree, reloading is something every other rifle has to do between most engagements. This is 2 + seconds that that player cannot sprint. The majority of my kills I do in under 10 shots which means I go 4 to 6 engagements without having to reload. Only a hand full of times have I ever lived long enough to run out of ammo. With op 5 on the rifle, you wait way less than 2 seconds before you've cooled enough to squeeze off another 4 to 8 rounds. Granted, this takes practice but if we are talking about where the rifle can yield to some balance, mag size would be my vote. Did you understand my arguement above? Perhaps I didn;t make it clear, let me rephrase. *ScR has a heat budget that is equivalent to a clip on another rifle. *ScR's heat bank is effectively it's clip *ScR's clip size means nothing when you can at most shoot 16 (25 on assault) shots, meaning it has an effective clip of 16 (25 on assault). *You "reload" the ScR by allowing it to cooldown. Effectively the ScR has a 4.5 sec reload time. *You are effectively reloading every time you have to let the gun cool down Take your pick. Also, on every other weapon you can still sprint during a reload, you just cancel the reload. On the ScR, when you overheat you die. Finally, why are you using the ScR. If you used the CR the majority of your kills would die in under 8 trigger pulls, with 10 trigger pulls left to spare. You would also be doing that damage at a faster rate with a more favorable damage profile. I did understand your argument, but I must not have been clear in my counter. Saying that the ScR has a 16 round mag due to it overheating after 16 continuous shots in not accurate because it is always cooling down. Ceasing fire after 15 shots for half a second can yield you another 3 shots. Ceasing fire for a full second will give you back 8 to 10 shots. See my point? You can look at it as a constant partial reload with a hard reload after 45 rounds.
I am almost 100% positive those numbers are completely from your backside.
SCR has a cooldown of 6 seconds, 4.5 with max skills. 8-10 would be 50-62.5% of the total heat bank capacity of the ScR. Ergo it would take between 3 (2.25 with max skills) and 3.75 (2.8seconds) in order to shoot another 8-10 rounds, both figures are greater than your typical rifle reload time period.
Use your brain rather than what you feel for figuring out these things. All of the numbers are right in front of you, use them. I couldn't give ones less sh-t about how long you feel certain things are or whatever. I have evidence backed by numbers which are EASILY FOUND.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Sure I'll give it a shot:
1) ScR is only OP with a turbo controller or way above average clicking speed (average being around 5 clicks per second). This would lead to less DPS than any other rifle, making it the only sub-400 rifle.
2) The overheating function is unique to the ScR, and can/does kill the user. This is a MAJOR drawback that prevents spamming it. This function nicely balances out the charge shot.
3) The fitting requirements are ridiculously high.
4) Actually the ScR is just plain bad on non-amarr assault suits. After 1 engagement, if you didn't overheat and die, you will overheat and die. Seriously, this weapon is borderline horrible on non-assault suits.
Question for the OP, did you mean to say the ScR is OP with turbo controllers on an amarr assault? If so, I agree, and the ScR needs only a RoF reduction to 400 RPM (max of 6.666 shots per second or around the same base DPS as the other rifles at max).
Oh, just to throw this out here:
The CR:
Does 50% more DPS than the other rifles
Does 102.5% normalized damage
Has insanely low fitting costs
Never Overheats
can kill suits in 4-6 shots rather than the 5-8 of your ScR experience, try it.
I can always tell when I die in my sentinel suit to a combat rifle because it happens way faster than to any other weapon. 400 bpm is the equivalent of 12th notes (triplets) at 120bpm. This is too slow. I can easily achieve 16th notes at 120bpm or 480 rpm. I can burst out a higher rate than that, but not sustain. I would hope that an easily achievable physical skill wouldn't be nerfed. http://youtu.be/n0ty2WZ82k8 <-- Trigger finger video in game What is easy for you is not easy for everyone. Search the web, seems like the majority of people click slower than 5 times per second. How high should the advantage for faster clicking be? Why shouldn't i just buy a modded controller so I can be "better" than everyone else because a few physical freaks can also achieve this? World record for clicking is like 14+ per second, so I guess because one dude can click that fast, we should balance around that. Then everyone will be forced to buy a modded controller to be competitive with that one guy. So split the difference at the high average. Saying it should be based at the highest achievable level is as dumb as saying it should be based at the lowest achievable level. Everyone gets a trophy right? 8 rounds per second is achievable by me, right here, non world record holding, not that great, average joe video gamer. Some people think faster, some aim better, some have more friends, I have an above average trigger finger speed. Reducing the rate of fire to the max of what you can achieve and calling it balance would be the same as doing something to counter any of the other life skills it takes to achieve advantages I mentioned above. You want to stop modded controllers? Do it the right way by mechanical consistency detection. A human will always have a variance on speed and rhythm that is detectable, where a machine will not. At least not with the randomizing computing power required that could fit in a chip soldiered onto a controller.
How about no?
ScR is a SKILL SHOT weapon, not the spam-fest weapon you use it as (watch your own video, you spray and prey using muscle twitch, not control). Actually the RoF would be more than 10% higher than the max of what I can achieve, a max that I pretty much never use as spamming R1 with the ScR = death (remember that pesky overheat mechanic). Pulling the trigger at 7.5-8 times per second would put you in the upper echelons of the entire population. You want to balance the weapon around how fast YOU can click, I want to balance the weapon around current in-game trends and DPS.
At 400 RPM (same as the TAC AR and the CR when accounting for the 3 round burst) the ScR does 479.9 DPS, which is still too high when compared to the other rifles(aside from the 650 DPS Combat Rifle), but it is within reason. This keeps the weapon functionally the same for the people who use skill to use it, and the scrubs with frealishly fast fingers or modded controllers will loose out on the crutch.
Either way I do agree the RoF is too high, and THAT IS THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THE WEAPON.
IF you actually gave one tiny bit of a sh-t about balance, you would probably talk about how the RR does the same DPS as the AR at twice the range, or the fact that the CR does nearly 50% more DPS than all the other rifles (while using that "everyone gets a trophy" speed you claimed before.)
Why are you singling out the ScR? You have no evidence or factually based extrapolation to claim that the ScR is OP (other than RoF being to high), while there is a ton that shows the CR and RR are insanely OP. Please explain.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 22:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
How about no?
ScR is a SKILL SHOT weapon, not the spam-fest weapon you use it as (watch your own video, you spray and prey using muscle twitch, not control). Actually the RoF would be more than 10% higher than the max of what I can achieve, a max that I pretty much never use as spamming R1 with the ScR = death (remember that pesky overheat mechanic). Pulling the trigger at 7.5-8 times per second would put you in the upper echelons of the entire population. You want to balance the weapon around how fast YOU can click, I want to balance the weapon around current in-game trends and DPS.
At 400 RPM (same as the TAC AR and the CR when accounting for the 3 round burst) the ScR does 479.9 DPS, which is still too high when compared to the other rifles(aside from the 650 DPS Combat Rifle), but it is within reason. This keeps the weapon functionally the same for the people who use skill to use it, and the scrubs with frealishly fast fingers or modded controllers will loose out on the crutch.
Either way I do agree the RoF is too high, and THAT IS THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THE WEAPON.
IF you actually gave one tiny bit of a sh-t about balance, you would probably talk about how the RR does the same DPS as the AR at twice the range, or the fact that the CR does nearly 50% more DPS than all the other rifles (while using that "everyone gets a trophy" speed you claimed before.)
Why are you singling out the ScR? You have no evidence or factually based extrapolation to claim that the ScR is OP (other than RoF being to high), while there is a ton that shows the CR and RR are insanely OP. Please explain.
The sad part here is that we are both arguing that the rifle is not OP, and you're right, I did pull the numbers out of my ass as far as cool down by relying on how it feels. I'm just not quite insulting as you in disagreeable points. I will try to protect the RoF because I outrun and misfire the TAC AR and the CR. It's the difference of 80 bpm, So as far as me talking about the imbalances of the RR and CR, I don't need to because that point has been driven home often enough. My argument is to keep the rate of fire at a level I can achieve and I yielded mag size and overall ammo because of points made prior.
I am sorry if I have been insulting, I just get sick and tired of the same false logic, undeniable B.S., and claims based upon feelings that are on these boards.
Yes though we do agree that the ScR is OP< and that is PURELY due to the ability of a person to do exactly what you do, spam the hell out of the R1 button. I propose a RoF that even though I cannot max out, will only allow the weapon at MAX RPM to achieve competitive DPS. The damage per shot, the charged shot, and the overheating mechanisms of this weapon are perfectly fine. The ability to spam it is not.
Like I said before though, the heat bank is the "clip" of the ScR, as any person who uses it all the time will attest too. As long as you don't miss, it is a powerful weapon, but that not missing part is what requires skill. You also cannot engage multiple targets without putting yourself at MUCH HIGHER RISK than any other rifle would put you in.
I think almost all ScR users would say the rifle is balanced, just that it can be abused by people using modded comtrollers, and that capping the RoF would do the trick.
Oh and you want CCP to program in some type of modded controller detector? That is an easy work around. Most of the more expensive modded controllers have programmable button presses (meaning you can make it rapid fire with an specific interval), it would be trivial to add a random number generator to that program to vary it within a few microseconds. As you know there are a good few people out there that can hit a button with incredible consistency, so for CCP to detect this type of cheating would border on impossible.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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