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D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:18:00 - [1] - Quote They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6491	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:19:00 - [2] - Quote My swarm launcher says otherwise. Pets swarm launcher It's ok girl, eventually you will actually hit a dropship Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Viktor Hadah Jr Critical-Impact 2645	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:28:00 - [3] - Quote Would you like my proto swarm launcher to give your dropship a relaxing massage, i promise it won't hurt no matter how hard i try... Selling Templar BPO's(325Mil) Richest Dust corp per capita, 100% corp activity ;-)
Rusty Shallows 964	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:37:00 - [4] - Quote Prototype Small Missiles and obscene amounts of SP help. There is no easy-mode for Dropships. Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1648	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:04:00 - [5] - Quote I feel like railguns should have their damage reduced to about 75% efficiency against DS or something... enough that you won't get lol1shot except for untanked Cal DS, but enough that you can't just sit there and tank it. Also fix the redline, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Horizen Kenpachi Kenpachi's Castle 164	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:14:00 - [6] - Quote Same old thread Hit me with your nerf bat.
ReGnYuM Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2125	Posted - 2014.02.14 12:07:00 - [7] - Quote HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset I Slay, for thy Empress Do you even PC... Brah
Tailss Prower 501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit 177	Posted - 2014.02.14 12:08:00 - [8] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. I Don't have much issues hell i find railguns to just be anouying
Jenova Rhapsodos Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 217	Posted - 2014.02.14 12:37:00 - [9] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
jordy mack Ultramarine Corp 163	Posted - 2014.02.14 13:08:00 - [10] - Quote I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. Less QQ more PewPew

D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1575	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:19:00 - [11] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA is that what women do when they see your *****? Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4677	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:21:00 - [12] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: ReGnYuM wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA is that what women do when they see your *****? Shots fired. Want to know how to make a strike-through? [s[Example[/s] Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 364	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:21:00 - [13] - Quote jordy mack wrote: I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. Forge guns 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1660	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:24:00 - [14] - Quote NK Scout wrote: jordy mack wrote: I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. Forge guns Nope. Unless I que breqch shots into you you're going to escape my 300m range. It's either lol1shot or nothing. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 216	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:26:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: My swarm launcher says otherwise. Pets swarm launcher It's ok girl, eventually you will actually hit a dropship That's sad, don't give her false hope.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 364	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:27:00 - [16] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: NK Scout wrote: jordy mack wrote: I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. Forge guns Nope. Unless I que breqch shots into you you're going to escape my 300m range. It's either lol1shot or nothing. When my hardener is down, even if I fly away I will probably die, pythons need mkre speed and shield 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Scheneighnay McBob Learning Coalition College 4023	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:28:00 - [17] - Quote They're perfect, except against redline rails. I have 2 super-tanked dropships right now. 2 heavy plates/extenders. Sad thing is, they probably still aren't as tough as a normal hardened one. Hardeners are OP as hell. I am your scan error.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 365	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:29:00 - [18] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: They're perfect, except against redline rails. I have 2 super-tanked dropships right now. 2 heavy plates/extenders. Sad thing is, they probably still aren't as tough as a normal hardened one. Hardeners are OP as hell. They arent.....thats thier job byw......and 2 heavy extender? I want that, needs a hardener though 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
LUGMOS YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE 314	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:31:00 - [19] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: NK Scout wrote: jordy mack wrote: I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. Forge guns Nope. Unless I que breqch shots into you you're going to escape my 300m range. It's either lol1shot or nothing. Dis. Assault and reg does little, breach charge is too long The biggest threat to my scout is everything. [Q] <-- Drink Moar Quafe
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 3026	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:34:00 - [20] - Quote Nothing has changed since 1.7 first shipped and it doesn't look like dropships will be getting any help in 1.8. You fly them because you want to. Not because they are OP. // Lance Commander // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana

D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1576	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:36:00 - [21] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Nothing has changed since 1.7 first shipped and it doesn't look like dropships will be getting any help in 1.8. You fly them because you want to. Not because they are OP. we fly them because we want to contribute to the team. but when it costs you hundreds of thousdands of isk and lav's and tanks can do identical tasks witha lower risk there is no point. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 365	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:37:00 - [22] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: Nothing has changed since 1.7 first shipped and it doesn't look like dropships will be getting any help in 1.8. You fly them because you want to. Not because they are OP. we fly them because we want to contribute to the team. but when it costs you hundreds of thousdands of isk and lav's and tanks can do identical tasks witha lower risk there is no point. 428k vs 288k better tank, hmmm which 1 to chose....also the cheaper 1 kills alot more 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Forlorn Destrier 2368	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:38:00 - [23] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. They are transport ships. They are not meant to be attack ships - the assualt variant is there to provide the pilot the ability to shoot back, and while some people feel this makes it an offensive platform (and a few of them do so effectively), the primary function based on design, fittings, and passenger space made it a delivery vehicle primarily. Delivery vehicles aren't supposed to be hardened vehicles. And yes I do fly a DS and I use it as a delivery vehicle, and I rarely lose one because I remember this is its intended purpose. And it does great at this intended purpose.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 365	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:39:00 - [24] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: D legendary hero wrote: They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. They are transport ships. They are not meant to be attack ships - the assualt variant is there to provide the pilot the ability to shoot back, and while some people feel this makes it an offensive platform (and a few of them do so effectively), the primary function based on design, fittings, and passenger space made it a delivery vehicle primarily. Delivery vehicles aren't supposed to be hardened vehicles. And yes I do fly a DS and I use it as a delivery vehicle, and I rarely lose one because I remember this is its intended purpose. And it does great at this intended purpose. If that were the case small missiles wouldnt have such high ammo Also ccp wants it that way Oh and they would cost so much 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1660	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:50:00 - [25] - Quote NK Scout wrote: If that were the case small missiles wouldnt have such high ammo HAVs use the same turrets. HAVs are intended for combat. The same turrets can be used on both vehicles. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Also ccp wants it that way Because the effects of things in the game are very much in line with what CCP wants and does not want - that's why things are nerfed so often. Oh wait. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Oh and they would cost so much They're tech-2 items. They're not intended for general use, the same as the Enforcers. If you could make a profit in those it's because you were railing from the redline. Your argument is invalid. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 843	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:52:00 - [26] - Quote Launches forge gun Dropship zooms away above the skybox Dropship flies back and spins in circle while killing me *Assassination is my thing.*
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 764	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:54:00 - [27] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Launches forge gun Dropship zooms away above the skybox Dropship flies back and spins in circle while killing me Alternate scenario. Fires swarm launcher Dropship outruns rockets Same as original I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 365	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:54:00 - [28] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: NK Scout wrote: If that were the case small missiles wouldnt have such high ammo HAVs use the same turrets. HAVs are intended for combat. The same turrets can be used on both vehicles. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Also ccp wants it that way Because the effects of things in the game are very much in line with what CCP wants and does not want - that's why things are nerfed so often. Oh wait. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Oh and they would cost so much They're tech-2 items. They're not intended for general use, the same as the Enforcers. If you could make a profit in those it's because you were railing from the redline. Your argument is invalid. Disregard all statements from you from now on, you just hate dropships, and look a regular dropships vs assault, doesnt warrent that hih price increase 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 365	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:55:00 - [29] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Launches forge gun Dropship zooms away above the skybox Dropship flies back and spins in circle while killing me Thats a incubus with afterburner, or your just bad, I hit dropships all day long, and kill 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 927	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:55:00 - [30] - Quote Dropships have the huge advantage of maneuvering on all 3 axes at potentially very high speeds. Just like a frig in EVE can "speed tank" against heavier opponents. I like the way they're difficult to fly and reward skilled pilots. I see Judge doing his thing on his videos and it's really impressive. One day I hope to fly (I mostly just fool around in bugged matches with 0 enemies to practice), but I'm waiting on the Amarr vehicles to be released. I hope we get them by summer. Best PvE idea ever!

Forlorn Destrier 2368	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:56:00 - [31] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: D legendary hero wrote: They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. They are transport ships. They are not meant to be attack ships - the assualt variant is there to provide the pilot the ability to shoot back, and while some people feel this makes it an offensive platform (and a few of them do so effectively), the primary function based on design, fittings, and passenger space made it a delivery vehicle primarily. Delivery vehicles aren't supposed to be hardened vehicles. And yes I do fly a DS and I use it as a delivery vehicle, and I rarely lose one because I remember this is its intended purpose. And it does great at this intended purpose. If that were the case small missiles wouldnt have such high ammo Also ccp wants it that way Oh and they would cost so much Missiles are used as a deterrent to allow people to jump out. A good DS pilot will deliver people to multiple objectives and as it will survive an entire match if flown properly a high magazine is critical to staying on station for extended periods of time while players deploy. The only way a missile launcher would be effective is at relatively low altitude which opens the ship up for small arms fire (which you can shoot gunners out) and other AV that can quickly overpower the defenses. To me, missile and blaster use exposes the DS so much that they should be deterrents only. A rail gun is different, as it can engage further. Given the low damage, however, this is best as anti-infantry or anti-LAV only - both of which move too fast to track. Infantry adds the additional challenge of something small to shoot with no real zooming ability. I still feel it is best as a transport vehicle, and given I can effectively transport and capture enemy objectives quickly by having an MCRU onboard, and then have my gunners provide covering fire as the object is captured before moving to a new objective I feel this is one of the best uses of the DS. The design suits this style of play best.
Evolution-7 The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:58:00 - [32] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: They are real Easy to take down and have little firee power vs each other. 1) I disagree with to shoot down part, except avoiding redline turrets and tanks are a pain. 2) They are TRANSPORT vehicles for the last time. Even the assault dropship is transport, its just got a minor offense capability which I think should be used for minor tasks of clearing out a group of snipers etc, its not got the ability to stay and return fire, it should stay like this. 3) Small turrets are primarily anti-infantry, dropships are not meant to take out dropships, leave that to AA HAVs, fighters, infantry heavy weaponry etc. Veteran Pilot "Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 729	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:59:00 - [33] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Prototype Small Missiles and obscene amounts of SP help. There is no easy-mode for Dropships. Dropships are in the best state they ha e ever been in, yet we can still be one shotted. There hasn't been, nor will there ever be an easy mode for pilots. Unless they become so strong and so easy to fly they become a FOTM but every pilot I know including me will fight that tooth and nail. It would be nice though if rails didn't one shot us from the redline so we could fight back or at least hide or something. CCP saberwing said they are looking into itso here's hoping.
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:01:00 - [34] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I feel like railguns should have their damage reduced to about 75% efficiency against DS or something... enough that you won't get lol1shot except for untanked Cal DS, but enough that you can't just sit there and tank it. Also fix the redline, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. a fitted galente can tank one rail hit, usually 2. if they're getting one shotted it's not from a rail it's from the odd chance a null cannon hitting them. %75 reduction is way too much. %20 at the most. but i dont think a damge reduction would be the best route. i like the nerf to turret elavation idea more more urgent is a fix to assault dropships how they are flipped over on their back after taking a rail hit- it would be possible to dodge the next shot except the Incubus gets flipped on it's back after any kind of rail hit u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1719	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:15:00 - [35] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Disregard all statements from you from now on, you just hate dropships, and look a regular dropships vs assault, doesnt warrent that hih price increase Would you argue that the Enforcer HAVs justified their 1.2M price tag? Or that the SLAV justified its 90k price tag? Some items shouldn't be used in pubs. Apparently CCP thinks ADS is one of those things. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's how it looks based on pricing schema. Actually I don't hate dropships. Not really sure where you got that idea. I do dislike your idiotic arguments. Your main get banned, jerrmy? Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I feel like railguns should have their damage reduced to about 75% efficiency against DS or something... enough that you won't get lol1shot except for untanked Cal DS, but enough that you can't just sit there and tank it. Also fix the redline, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. a fitted galente can tank one rail hit, usually 2. if they're getting one shotted it's not from a rail it's from the odd chance a null cannon hitting them. *unless it's a critical hit on the engine %75 reduction is way too much. %20 at the most. but i dont think a damge reduction would be the best route. i like the nerf to turret elavation idea more more urgent is a fix to assault dropships how they are flipped over on their back after taking a rail hit- it would be possible to dodge the next shot except the Incubus gets flipped on it's back after any kind of rail hit- this inlcudes the blue berries who sit in redline rail turrets and make it their mission to grieve friendly dropships the entire match by knocking them on their backs., That's a 25% reduction - like it or not the railgun is the only effective way to kill a DS at the moment, and their ability to control the map is too great (greater than HAVs, I think, assuming equal skill) to ignore them, which either means they need to die, or I need to chase it with a forge for the rest of the game. Honestly I'm not a fan of ADS in the first place (although that might be a leftover from the old suggestion of Bomber DS - I mean, really). Forge on for great justice! Defend the meek! Destroy the weak! Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1248	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:28:00 - [36] - Quote Dropships are in a massive confused status right now. People seem to think you should be able to kill mercenaries in 1-2 shots from a dropship and its game breaking.... Dropships should have immense amount of tanking ability... but limited offensively except versus other dropships.. Dropships would be a lot more functional if it could tank while the modules are hot but not have the complete ability to slaughter infantry like you have an Uprising Flaylock missile launching turret. When dropships have staying power on the battlefield we will see WAYYY faster pace combat as getting to and from battles with dedicated dropship pilots having confidence in their role.
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1650	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:33:00 - [37] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: NK Scout wrote: If that were the case small missiles wouldnt have such high ammo HAVs use the same turrets. HAVs are intended for combat. The same turrets can be used on both vehicles. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Also ccp wants it that way Because the effects of things in the game are very much in line with what CCP wants and does not want - that's why things are nerfed so often. Oh wait. Your argument is invalid. Quote: Oh and they would cost so much They're tech-2 items. They're not intended for general use, the same as the Enforcers. If you could make a profit in those it's because you were railing from the redline. Your argument is invalid. your argument is valid. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1650	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:40:00 - [38] - Quote i give up on dropships. there are not enough pilots in the game to actively suport it and nobody wants dropships to have a role in the ggame other than transporting troops, which LAVs can do much better for half the cost. DS are a massive SP sink, LAVs you can use militia for about as much as a dropsuit and get people to objectives just as fast. You can even put a mobile CRU in an LAV. lets face the facts. DS are not the only transport vehicle in the game, and the only places they have access to that LAVs dnt are roof tops. They are stupid though, because, right now DS are really slow and easy to shoot down the only tacticle purpose they serve is putting snipers and forgegunners on roof tops. people who do that aren't pilots because they arent really dropshipping theyre just flying to roofs and putting up links. as far as troop transport is concerned, LAVs are much cheaper, faster (top speed is lower but they accelerate faster getting you to the objectives quicker), more manuverable, and A LOT SAFER. there are more objects and buildings and structures LAVs can hide behind on the gound so a good driver can get 3 ppl to an objective much safer. In fact 2 militia LaVs can carry a squad of 6 to an objective with half the price and 3x the surviibility as a DS. they normally dnt get instarailed from red-line-to-red-line. And unlike dropships when people see an LAV they aren't as eager to get their AV. case-and-point. If 3 maps were connected perhaps ds could be useful once they attain top speed. But for the map size we have, LAVs are way better for transport. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Aramis Madrigal SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 140	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:58:00 - [39] - Quote I think ADS are in a spot right now similar to the HAVs of yore. They are expensive and require a lot of SP. However, the very best pilots make you very sad to be anywhere out in the open. -Aramis
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 475	Posted - 2014.02.19 20:04:00 - [40] - Quote I don't think DSs are in to bad of shape right now. I've got an Incubus that has 4100+ armor, and it takes a pretty mighty rail to 2 shot me. I can usually take a good 3 hits in a row from a rail and (maybe) get away. I use a very offensive style, I stay insanely low for the most part (like head level) and I use buildings for cover. I never run gunners in my ADS (as someone said at low altittudes gunners are dead men), and I currently run an enhanced scanner in the high slot. Someone asked for a heavily armored transport, that could ideally be a scanning platform. Well they have it, and its what got me into DSs when 1.7 hit. Its the Grims. Keeping in mind I only have basic vehicle mods (other than scanners) i can get a Grims up to 4900+ armor, and with 2 enhanced scanners the gap between scans is miniscule. Of course you have to stay low to be an effective scanner/ADSer with no gunners or ABs (or boosters or reppers lol) but (in my opinion) that is where armor DSs are suppose to be, low. The only thing i would really want to see is the maps sight lines broken up some (which would help a bunch of stuff, for example the fact you can get snipped out at Alpha on the 3 letter map right at the very opening 30 seconds of the game is stupid). Put up some structures and make the rail snippers have to move around more to find those long shots, and make the window for those across the map rail shots much smaller. Lastly, the DS transport assist still seems broke. I drop 3 guys in the beginning of a match, and 15 minutes later I get 1 batch of transport assist WP, and its always some random @ss number that has no corelation to what actually happened. Its like a damn slot machine. I haven't failed 10,000 times, i've successfully found 10,000 ways that won't work. Thomas Edison

Buwaro Draemon Science For Death 132	Posted - 2014.02.19 20:38:00 - [41] - Quote jordy mack wrote: I think there should be a tanked out version with no turret slots purely for transport, but it would be a bit op to have an indestructible flying cru, constantly scanning. And its pretty much only railtanks that pop u right? So its probably more a op rail issue than an up ds issue. So you want the Logistics dropship back?
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 511	Posted - 2014.02.19 21:05:00 - [42] - Quote From my experience when using a proto forgegun they'e pretty hard to take done,much harder than a tank if the pilot is good,They maybe weak in defenses sat wise but with hardernes going at the right time and knowing when to GTFO at the right time they are a pain in the ass. A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.


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