DUST Search - Starbucks, Hilmar and coffee/gunplay.

Baal Roo wrote:

Vrain Matari wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics.

Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics.

All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers.

It's not "bullshitting" to make the best game you can make. Just look at Eve: Online, It's not an amazing space flight sim... and space flight sim players are probably the one single demographic of gamers that are even more picky than FPS players.

The flying a spaceship and shooting things is simply the vehicle in which they package the actual meat of the game, it's not "the core" of the game. The same could be done with Dust 514, and I would argue that it's what the majority of the fans of the idea of Dust 514 really want. As long as the FPS stuff is servicable then we're good to go for diving into the actual game of a deep sandbox of politics, economics, etc.


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Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 01:08:00 - [1] - Quote This is an agument for quality FPS core mechanics using Hilmar's analogy. Short and sweet. If Starbuck's had tried to develop their brand way back at the beggining selling crappy coffee, i submit that they would have failed. Selling a quality core coffee-product was a necessary prerequisite to being able to develop their brand of 'something other than coffee that i'm willing to pay exorbitant prices for because it somehow satisfies my aspirational needs as a blah blah blah...' Same is true for DUST. Quality core mechanics are a necessary prereq for getting console FPS peeps to buy into the greater New Eden experience. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:21:00 - [2] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics. Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics. All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:23:00 - [3] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Ummmm ok? We established this back in 1.1 We did? There's a whole lot of peeps on these forums and in Shanghai who didn't get the message. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:16:00 - [4] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics. Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics. All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers. It's not "bullshitting" to make the best game you can make. Just look at Eve: Online, It's not an amazing space flight sim... and space flight sim players are probably the one single demographic of gamers that are even more picky than FPS players. The flying a spaceship and shooting things is simply the vehicle in which they package the actual meat of the game, it's not "the core" of the game. The same could be done with Dust 514, and I would argue that it's what the majority of the fans of the idea of Dust 514 really want. As long as the FPS stuff is servicable then we're good to go for diving into the actual game of a deep sandbox of politics, economics, etc. I think you're dead wrong. I think the bulk of the peeps who drop this game after only a few hours drop it on the basis of the core mechanics. Adding all the cool higher level content that is New Eden will have very little effect on that retention rate. Players only hours or days old who are dropping the game are not dropping it on the basis of sov mechanics of player market. Imo, they're dropping DUST based on the controls and feel of the game. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 06:15:00 - [5] - Quote Your approach 2) means that every review ever written about DUST will have a line like this in it: 'If you can overlook the stodgy, uninspired controls and the subpar gunplay, and deep MMO's are your thing and you have a lot of time to invest in a game, then DUST is worth trying. But if you're looking for a competitive FPS you'd best keep looking.' That's a lot of good, competitive players to be pushing away from the game on the assumption that CCP can't produce a decent FPS. How much time over the last year have they really spent focusing on the FPS core of the game? Almost none. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1571	Posted - 2014.02.14 06:21:00 - [6] - Quote Venerable Phage wrote: Starbucks is not a quality coffee brand. It is a well marketed sub standard espresso that in Australia is twice the price for half the quality. It was quality enough not to drive away customers while they built an empire. Where do you think they would be today if they had served coffee that had a rejection rate like DUST's core FPS gameplay? What is the retention rate in the academy? Less than 1% for sure. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1576	Posted - 2014.02.15 13:53:00 - [7] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: The thing bogging down Dust is the lack of economics, player market, and the lack of political connections, a way to influence EVE. I definitely agree with you, but i think these things apply more to veterans/peeps who come from EVE. When it comes to new players leaving after only a few hours with the game, i think the controls bear a lot of the responsibility for that. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1576	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:06:00 - [8] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: This is an agument for quality FPS core mechanics using Hilmar's analogy. Short and sweet. If Starbuck's had tried to develop their brand way back at the beggining selling crappy coffee, i submit that they would have failed. Selling a quality core coffee-product was a necessary prerequisite to being able to develop their brand of 'something other than coffee that i'm willing to pay exorbitant prices for because it somehow satisfies my aspirational needs as a blah blah blah...' Same is true for DUST. Quality core mechanics are a necessary prereq for getting console FPS peeps to buy into the greater New Eden experience. Starbucks sells quality coffee? Lol, if you only drank commercial lagers you'd never know what real beer tastes like. DUST is at the local greasy pizza stage. It's not ready to go national yet. That is their mistake. They tried to go national. Starbucks, mmmGÇª I just burnt my tongue. I'm not here to debate aromatics, and when it comes to taste most peeps are full of self-deluding bullshit taught to them by marketing firms. Point is the coffee was quality enough to build an empire. Are DUST core FPS mechanics good enough to convince the core FPS demographic that the game is worth investing their time in? It's a little harder to bullshit experienced peeps when they're hands-on with the controls. I think that when most experienced FPSers give the game a shot they end up rejecting it based on the controls. You think different? I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1581	Posted - 2014.02.16 03:04:00 - [9] - Quote @ Baal Roo. I definitely hear what you're saying. But you're also making assumptions about what i believe, and it's definitely not " that 'experienced FPSers" only want to play "pure" FPS titles and have no interest in anything else'. Either you misunderstand me or it's a straw man argument. Of course there are FPSers out there who are crying out for a deep, engaging, persistent, living universe to FPS in. But i also believe that the first credibility test that those potential New Eden citizens will subject CCP to is the FPS mechanics, the controls, the feel of the game. Because it's what those new players know best and a AAA FPS experience is what DUST promises. CCP is asking these new players for a lot: they're changing a lot of the FPS conventions, they're putting these new players on an uneven playing field, they're introducing complex systems that are alien to many console FPS players. CCP is effectively saying to players 'Forget what you know, this is New Eden. You have to step up your game, you have to learn all these new systems and mechanics. You have to pay these penalties for failure, you have to invest in this game more than casually if you want to do well.' And that's fine, and that's the way i want it. But there a deal implicit in asking for all those things from new players: the deal is that if the player makes that dedicated effort CCP will do their part to provide an experience that measures up to the effort invested. And so we come to the point where the new player says 'Ok, CCP, you're on, i'll give DUST a serious go.' And they play a few matches and come to the realization that CCP has executed poorly on basic mechanics and that the game plays exactly like you'd expect a free-to-play shooter to play. And now the player has to make an assessment: 'Do i accept all this romantic-sounding big talk CCP is sending my way about their mind-blowing virtual universe, or do i call bullshit because they can't even execute on basic FPS mechanics, and save myself the time?' We definitely disagree about how that question gets answered by new players. Tbh i hope you're right, but that's not the way i'd bet. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1582	Posted - 2014.02.16 03:27:00 - [10] - Quote @Baal Roo. When i look at your argument regarding EVE as a space sim i can see your point. But it also brings out the biggest difference between these two games. In EVE the game does not depend on personal skills in the way DUST does. Peeps are more willing to forgive flawed mechanics in EVE because those mechanics do not directly mediate player actions. In DUST there's no other option than to win the fight. Strategy/tactics/teamwork/fotm aside, winning or losing against another player is mediated directly by the core FPS mechanics, and so when those mechanics betray the player it's a lot more personal than in eve. I support SP rollover.