DUST Search - Instead of side gunners...

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Komodo Jones wrote:

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO.

I can think of many many good reasons why this is a bad idea:

It's my ship, my SP, my ISK. Let me pilot it.

The number of good gunners are few and far between.

Even with a good gunner. The constant moving required to stay alive will make uncoordinated pilots/gunners very ineffective.

Aiming isn't that hard, you all just need more practice.

Have you tried tandem-LAV gunning? It's very very difficult. Now think of that in three dimensions.

Why are you trying to gimp ADSs any more? THEY'RE FINE! Leave me ALONE!

Ugh, stop freaking out and read the discussions, I already made an edit to the first post.

Not trying to nerf anyone I know how annoying it is to get shot down in a dropship before you can even react.

Mandatory for tanks, optional for ADS.

And no I'm not going to get practice with that thing, it costs at least half a mil just to use one effectively, I can't aim worth a damn so I won't get anything out of it, and I'll most likely get shot down before I get the chance to do anything. If you're not an experienced ADS pilot it's an ISK shredder.

I apologize for sounding accusational in my original post. My brother and I argued over this topic and I can firmly say, at least for me, forcing this for all pilots would be awful. However, if I wouldn't mind if it (among other things as well) were toggleable.

I still think it's best to learn to target yourself, it's far better. What I did when I was starting out was just flying a militia dropship and pretending to target things on the ground (though you might want to try a STD due to the auto leveling "feature"). It's slower so you can methodically work on your maneuvers and is a lot cheeper. Just fly around the redline a bit, target buildings and narrow it down to points. Using STD/MLT missiles should work just as well and should only go about 350k on a well fit dropship, though it will probably take 2-3 missiles to kill someone (but that just means more practice!).

Believe me, if you're going to be a pilot, you're going to have to get used to losing ships. Budget your money and don't get careless or greedy.


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Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 469	Posted - 2014.02.13 16:47:00 - [1] - Quote Why not have a forward gunner for your dropship? What I'm thinking is have an assault dropship where the "co-pilot" controls the forward turret, then you don't need to aim the entire ship just to man a tiny gun. This came from an idea that someone showed me about making tanks function this way, where you have 2 different seats to operate it, one for the main gun and 1 for the drive systems, so you wouldn't be able to ride around AND fire the turret unless you had 2 people, interesting mechanic I think :) This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 469	Posted - 2014.02.13 17:00:00 - [2] - Quote Yeah that's fair, optional for dropship pilots, mandatory for tanks. Honestly this would be fantastic for people who have a guy who wouldn't mind being dedicated to being your gunner, it might actually improve tank capabilities, but it would at least cut down on how many people are running around with solo tanks. Have a tank variant for people who still want to go back to 1 man tanking because people who have invested alot of time in it and have gotten really good at it shouldn't be punished, should cost alot of skill points to get into and a bit more isk, after all it's people who spam militia tanks that are the problem This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 469	Posted - 2014.02.13 17:01:00 - [3] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: should be able to put the turrets where you want them ie two on the left or right side or front, back Thaaaat's true too, and I'm kind of annoyed that you need 3 turrets on a tank just to get 1 on the top This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 470	Posted - 2014.02.13 17:33:00 - [4] - Quote Meee One wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: Yeah that's fair, optional for dropship pilots, mandatory for tanks. That isn't fair. If it's to be mandatory for HAVs it should be mandatory for dropships. Even LAVs can't operate their own guns,AND their drivers are exposed to enemy fire! Have you tried to use an assault dropship? Tanks are way too easy in comparison, it's fair This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 470	Posted - 2014.02.13 17:36:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: Yeah that's fair, optional for dropship pilots, mandatory for tanks. Honestly this would be fantastic for people who have a guy who wouldn't mind being dedicated to being your gunner, it might actually improve tank capabilities, but it would at least cut down on how many people are running around with solo tanks. Have a tank variant for people who still want to go back to 1 man tanking because people who have invested alot of time in it and have gotten really good at it shouldn't be punished, should cost alot of skill points to get into and a bit more isk, after all it's people who spam militia tanks that are the problem 1 person for rail and missile tanks, 2 for blaster tanks. Make up some reason about heat generation or something necessitating two people for blaster turrets. If it should take two AVers to kill a tank, it should take two people to operate a tank that can easily wreck a full squad before overheating its turret once. Well the idea is that if you want to use the gun going solo you need to switch seats, rail and missile tanks are still annoying it's not only blasters that are annoying. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:23:00 - [6] - Quote Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote: I ADS and gun just fine. In fact a co pilot would be worse I think. The coordination and timing would affect turret functionality. In some situations it may be improved, but when being more mobile I believe it would actually hinder target acquisition and consistent groupings. Would the turret have 360 underside rotation? Dogfighting with a belly gun not controlled by the pilot would be impractical. However, dorsal mounted guns may be the best anti DS fit. Well that's fine, for you, there are very few people who use an ADS effectively, why? Because it's hard, and yes that's fine if that sounds whiney. I can fly a normal dropship and I'm great at that but when it comes to the ADS I feel like a drunk frat boy who's trying to play darts after someone spun him in a chair really fast. And that's fantastic if you've learned how to function in one of those and not to mention survive, especially if there's railtanks out there, but the rest of us aren't as capable so regardless of how useful it would be to good ADS pilot why not have a mechanic that at least allows others to function? Have you tried to fly a normal dropship with side gunners? I got a buddy that I fly with who makes it very effective, if I had better vehicles or turrets or could survive a rail tanker it would be much better. It works just fine, it would be better if they didn't have such a limited view. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:33:00 - [7] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: u all seem to fail at seeing that making it require 2 ppl to operate the tank would mean tank overall combat efficiency would increase significantly. they wouldnt be running into stuff any more and there would basically be a much smaller window of opportunity for av. and the current window of opportunity is pretty good currently if u set your self in the right scenario which is relatively easy to set up in almost any map we have currently. What he said. And just to throw in a bit of realism, no tank is ever piloted by 1 person, there is a driver a gunner and maybe an ammo loader, not sure but there's at least 2 people, so suck it :P So not only would it make tanks more capable but if an enemy did call in a tank and intend to use is effectively, it would mean there's even less infantry on the field to get objectives or get into tight spaces and less strain on the guys on your team who aren't using AV This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:37:00 - [8] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: For tanks only, not dropships. It would be great. 1.-Aiming with a dropship is difficult and they're easily shot down even by 1 player. There wouldn't be any difference between a regular DS and an ADS. 2.-Tanks are really strong. They take multiple people to fight them effectively. This would require squad play and good communication, and would keep 2 players away from infantry roles in exchange of the tank's power. It would contribute to balance tanks vs infantry. We're thinking just make it optional for dropships, this way people like me who can fly but can't aim, can have a buddy gun for them, yes it would be about the same as the standard dropship but the gunner gets a much wider view, 360 degree underbelly movement. But for experienced solo pilots they could still fly solo if they wanted. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:42:00 - [9] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: JP Acuna wrote: For tanks only, not dropships. It would be great. 1.-Aiming with a dropship is difficult and they're easily shot down even by 1 player. There wouldn't be any difference between a regular DS and an ADS. 2.-Tanks are really strong. They take multiple people to fight them effectively. This would require squad play and good communication, and would keep 2 players away from infantry roles in exchange of the tank's power. It would contribute to balance tanks vs infantry. We're thinking just make it optional for dropships, this way people like me who can fly but can't aim, can have a buddy gun for them, yes it would be about the same as the standard dropship but the gunner gets a much wider view, 360 degree underbelly movement. But for experienced solo pilots they could still fly solo if they wanted. It is optional already: ADS or DS. standard dropship side gunners don't have the same field of view and often have trouble aiming when I need to make even small adjustments, the turret flips up and the shot goes off into the distance, making it an option for another player to use an underbelly gun would be huge frustration relief This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:48:00 - [10] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO. I can think of many many good reasons why this is a bad idea: It's my ship, my SP, my ISK. Let me pilot it. The number of good gunners are few and far between. Even with a good gunner. The constant moving required to stay alive will make uncoordinated pilots/gunners very ineffective. Aiming isn't that hard, you all just need more practice. Have you tried tandem-LAV gunning? It's very very difficult. Now think of that in three dimensions. Why are you trying to gimp ADSs any more? THEY'RE FINE! Leave me ALONE! Ugh, stop freaking out and read the discussions, I already made an edit to the first post. Not trying to nerf anyone I know how annoying it is to get shot down in a dropship before you can even react. Mandatory for tanks, optional for ADS. And no I'm not going to get practice with that thing, it costs at least half a mil just to use one effectively, I can't aim worth a damn so I won't get anything out of it, and I'll most likely get shot down before I get the chance to do anything. If you're not an experienced ADS pilot it's an ISK shredder. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.

Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 22:03:00 - [11] - Quote It's not difficult to aim a side turret in 3 dimensions with a flying vehicle, I have people gun in my standard dropship all the time effectively, LAVs are a different story but it's just because the aiming mechanics for vehicles are stupid. Why not keep the gunner facing the same direction the whole time unless he wants to turn even if you're turning the vehicle? Why do the turrets stay stationary while someone else is turning and moving you? Don't just sit there and say "well that's the way things are", it's a stupid mechanic and at least having the OPTION to do things differently even if it's not what you're used to might just improve things. I figured out how to use the LAVs when they basically handled like wet soap on a sheet of glass, when the only way to move the thing was the stupid analog stick acceleration mechanic instead of putting the throttle on the triggers, I didn't want to try out the new mechanics because I was used to the old ones, but they turned out to be remarkably, intuitively, better. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 22:07:00 - [12] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: And no I'm not going to get practice with that thing, it costs at least half a mil just to use one effectively, I can't aim worth a damn so I won't get anything out of it, and I'll most likely get shot down before I get the chance to do anything. If you're not an experienced ADS pilot it's an ISK shredder. Well, maybe you could stick to regular dropships. I only use my ADS rarely when i know risk isn't too high, and every time i learn something. It is hard but you learn. 90% of the times i get shot down tho and it's the most disappointing feeling in this game. Actually i've realised many times that i love the Grimsnes more, but i don't always have squad support to be useful with them. If i didn't need to fly and do things solo, i would be happy as a transport and support pilot. The special thing about ADS is that you can kill things on your own. Again, what's wrong with having the OPTION to do it my way? With a co-pilot/ front gunner? Why do you feel that that mechanic shouldn't be in the game as an OPTION to those who WANT to use it while not interfering with people who do put up with the nonsense of flying an ADS? What is it some ritual trial to be a solo pilot? Is there some elite club I'm not aware of? This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 471	Posted - 2014.02.13 22:20:00 - [13] - Quote You ADS pilots aren't paying attention, I don't care what you think about giving up control of your turret to another player, why? Because I don't see a reason why you have to, it's very simple, in the fittings menu when you're making the ship you just decide whether or not the front turret will be controlled by you or a co-pilot, that's it. You can still fly your own dropship and have control of your own turret if you want to, you guys keep telling me it wouldn't be worth it and you wouldn't trust your gun in the hands of another player, well I would, and it would be worth it to me. If I could have the guy I fly with take control of a turret that had complete unobstructed view of the underside of the dropship, WITH turning capability that doesn't require me to turn the entire ship just to aim off to the right, then I would find that far more worth it TO ME than spending countless hours and millions of isk trying to fly by myself, who are you to tell me I'm wrong in that statement? Yes this is a very selfish post about a mechanic that I want to see in the game for ME that I would find useful, but I'm not saying other people have to change what they do to fit my wants so what's the problem? To quote Vulpus, It's my ship, my SP, my ISK. So why can you do what you want with it but I can't? This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 472	Posted - 2014.02.13 23:36:00 - [14] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Komodo Jones wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO. I can think of many many good reasons why this is a bad idea: It's my ship, my SP, my ISK. Let me pilot it. The number of good gunners are few and far between. Even with a good gunner. The constant moving required to stay alive will make uncoordinated pilots/gunners very ineffective. Aiming isn't that hard, you all just need more practice. Have you tried tandem-LAV gunning? It's very very difficult. Now think of that in three dimensions. Why are you trying to gimp ADSs any more? THEY'RE FINE! Leave me ALONE! Ugh, stop freaking out and read the discussions, I already made an edit to the first post. Not trying to nerf anyone I know how annoying it is to get shot down in a dropship before you can even react. Mandatory for tanks, optional for ADS. And no I'm not going to get practice with that thing, it costs at least half a mil just to use one effectively, I can't aim worth a damn so I won't get anything out of it, and I'll most likely get shot down before I get the chance to do anything. If you're not an experienced ADS pilot it's an ISK shredder. I apologize for sounding accusational in my original post. My brother and I argued over this topic and I can firmly say, at least for me, forcing this for all pilots would be awful. However, if I wouldn't mind if it (among other things as well) were toggleable. I still think it's best to learn to target yourself, it's far better. What I did when I was starting out was just flying a militia dropship and pretending to target things on the ground (though you might want to try a STD due to the auto leveling "feature"). It's slower so you can methodically work on your maneuvers and is a lot cheeper. Just fly around the redline a bit, target buildings and narrow it down to points. Using STD/MLT missiles should work just as well and should only go about 350k on a well fit dropship, though it will probably take 2-3 missiles to kill someone (but that just means more practice!). Believe me, if you're going to be a pilot, you're going to have to get used to losing ships. Budget your money and don't get careless or greedy. That's absolutely fair, I can work with militia, I have 0 points into vehicles on my main so I kinda have to, but I can at least take a hit if I'm still in the air so I'll try it out. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.