DUST Search - 1.8 new proficiency skill could mean commandos gain HUGE advantage.

Ivan Avogadro wrote:

Look at the new Sentinels though. Cal Sent gets 3% / lv shield damage reduction to Blasters and 2% / lv shield damage reduction to lasers. Blasters and Lasers both have damage bonus to shields, which is now washed out. You'll have to use projectiles or rails against Cal Sent to avoid his dmg soak. But those weapons are already reduced against shield and he's the highest shield Sentinel there is.

Look at the Amarr Sent next. Armor resistance to rails and projectiles, and the most armor. So you either do enhanced damage with the category that he soaks, or weak damage against the category he's strongest in. Additionally you also can't choose to target armor first anyway. So do you engage with a weapon that is strong v shields, and give up your position only to turn almost instantly switch to a new gun?

Scouts will still melt under fire, regardless of the shield/armor choice. Well tanked scouts sit maybe at 400 to 500 eHP, race dependent. On your examples, you were talking about a difference on 40 dmg. With only 400 health, that's the difference of dropping the scout immediately or leaving him at 10% health, which you can just reapply with another 1 to 2 bullets.

So, Sentinels can tank the damage buff with their damage reduction, and Scouts just die anyway. So the Medium Frames are the only ones who need to worry about the new Commando. At that point it comes down to walking speed, grenades, and the fact that Assaults are all getting bonuses to the operation of their guns, rather than the power. An Assault suit will have better aim, better clip sizes, or faster reloads than Commandos.

All in all, let's see how the TTK levels out. Commandos will definitely be the true damage dealers, but not necessarily the best for every situation.

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I-Shayz-I I-----I 2300	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:51:00 - [1] - Quote First of all, I'm not saying OP this or nerf that. I'm actually quite excited to see the new heavy suits and what will become of the commandos. I really want to see their role become a specialized killing machine... However, I just realized something and wanted to share it. First let me re-quote this: CCP Remnant wrote: Yeah, TTK is definitely something we're looking at improving. The reason we've not hot-fixed a blanket 10% nerf is simply because of the knock -on effects it has (e.g. reducing the damage output of an ammo guzzler like the ACR means it gets a bigger nerf than simply reduced DPS; though some might argue that's not a bad thing). For 1.8 you should see re-adjustment of damage mods, a reduction to weapon damage and possibly alteration of the weapon proficiency skills to only buff damage against shield or armor (in keeping with that weapon's profile) instead of a blanket 3% per level to both shields and armor. Due to the new proficiency skills in 1.8, each weapon will do a considerate amount more damage to the type of HP that it's good at dealing damage to. For example, a Scrambler Rifle with proficiency 5 deals 15% more damage than usual, with a +20% on top of that for damage against shields, or -20% for damage against armor. (Btw, you can add them in either order as 1.15 * 1.2 is the same as 1.2 * 1.15) To put simply, if a SR round did 100 damage, it would then become 115 base damage, then multipled by 1.2 or 0.8 for damage against shields or armor respectively. This means a damage of 138 against shields, or 92 against armor. This is a difference of 46 damage, or 33% Now compare that to 1.8. A round dealing 100 damage would have 115 base damage to shield, again giving us 138 for shield damage, but base damage against armor would only be 100, so the armor damage would only be 80. This is a difference of 58 damage or 42% What about something like the Rail Rifle? Again let's stick with 100 base damage, and use 1.8 proficiency. That's 100 base damage to shield and 115 base damage to armor. Multiply by 0.9 to get 90 for shield damage, and multiply by 1.1 to get 126.5 for armor. This is a difference of 36.5 or 29% ______________________________________ So what does this have to do with commandos? Well this shows that weapons will feel a lot more powerful against the types of HP that they're good against...In the Scrambler Rifle example players will be doing 42% more damage to shields than armor with a high proficiency skill...but the commando gets to use two different weapons. This means that you can take advantage of the damage bonus to shields the scrambler gets, then switch to the Rail Rifle for the armor bonus. "but can't you already do that now?" Yes, but currently the weapon proficiency bonus makes it so that it's easy to deal damage in HP that isn't the best for your weapon. Trying to eat through armor with a scrambler in 1.8 will be a very difficult thing indeed. This is where the realization comes in. Assuming my math is correct... In 1.8 as a commando (granted, with proficiency 5 weapons), you will be dealing: 35% more damage to shields with the scrambler compared to the RR 37% more damage to armor than shields with the RR Or about an average of 36% more damage at all times by using two HP specific weapons, than if you were to only use one (again, if you had skilled into proficiency with both those weapons) ____________________________________ And here's the icing on the cake: New Commando Skills Amarr Commando Bonus: +2% damage to laser light weapons per level Caldari Commando Bonus: +2% damage to hybrid - railgun light weapons per level. Gallente Commando Bonus: +2% damage to hybrid - blaster light weapons per level. Minmatar Commando Bonus: +2% damage to projectile and explosive light weapons per level. Oh, and this is all before damage mods (but apparently those are getting changed too so I can't really speculate on that. Just let that sink in for a while... Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood 1362	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:59:00 - [2] - Quote The gal commando is going to be a land dominix as soon as rifles are rebalanced. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3429	Posted - 2014.02.12 15:04:00 - [3] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: However, I just realized something and wanted to share it. First let me re-quote this: CCP Remnant wrote: Yeah, TTK is definitely something we're looking at improving. The reason we've not hot-fixed a blanket 10% nerf is simply because of the knock -on effects it has (e.g. reducing the damage output of an ammo guzzler like the ACR means it gets a bigger nerf than simply reduced DPS; though some might argue that's not a bad thing). For 1.8 you should see re-adjustment of damage mods, a reduction to weapon damage and possibly alteration of the weapon proficiency skills to only buff damage against shield or armor (in keeping with that weapon's profile) instead of a blanket 3% per level to both shields and armor. That's the part I'd be emphasizing for now. The "possible" part makes me hope that they just put it off, and I don't say that because it's necessarily a bad idea. I just think it would make more sense to see how things are with their weapon and damage mod changes first. I say this as a person that really wants longer TTK (had a huge thread running for multiple months). I'd like to think with them changing so many things at once, that they'd practice a little prudence here since it was already a "possibly" sort of category. A "by-type" proficiency nerf would be such a large change, it's hard to even fathom the numbers, especially on top of weapon and mod changes at the same time. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Jack Boost Zarena Family 315	Posted - 2014.02.12 15:10:00 - [4] - Quote Commando bonuses .. means only that they will apply to ONE weapon that you carry (in this example - you carry two weapons for diferent shield/armor engagments) Still getting calculator at fight time.. not help much.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1199	Posted - 2014.02.12 15:15:00 - [5] - Quote It is not just commandos that this will affect. Take a look at this thread, that I recently created: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=141276&find=unread {:)}{3GÇó>
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 377	Posted - 2014.02.12 15:29:00 - [6] - Quote Great work as usual Shayz. Def somethings to think about and plan for. Future Caldari Heavy so watch out for this Sumo Shinobi with a Caldari HMG .
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 97	Posted - 2014.02.12 16:23:00 - [7] - Quote Logically I still dont like the idea of proficiency giving only a damage modifier to armor or shields. It doesnt make sense. - do you fire a weapon at a different angle or certain RPM to get more damage versus one or the other. Proficiency should give a damage buff or not (give something else like efficacy of damage mods or weapon customization mods) "Shine bright like a diamond"
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2918	Posted - 2014.02.12 17:35:00 - [8] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: -Snip- Nice post BTW GASP! Does this mean that gunfights will actually include strategy and tactics? Such as playing more defensively against someone using a Scrambler (if you shield tank) and rushing people who use Explosive weapons? Or maybe a scout ignoring that Heavily shield tanked cal assault while running around with their Rail Rifle.... Or to gunfights becoming less of a "Who can damage mod/eHP tank more" and more of "Who came to the fight prepared?" I like the way this is going. Smart Gunplay is far more exciting than just Raw Damage or Raw eHP fighting. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Marston VC SVER True Blood 1551	Posted - 2014.02.12 17:45:00 - [9] - Quote Jack Boost wrote: Commando bonuses .. means only that they will apply to ONE weapon that you carry (in this example - you carry two weapons for diferent shield/armor engagments) Still getting calculator at fight time.. not help much. The commando has TWO light weapon slots. Even if your not getting a 10% bonus to one of them, your still going to get a 10-20% default bonus to whatever the second weapons damage type is. So for example, I would use the combat rifle and the scrambler rifle (assault varients) on lets say the minmatar commando. The SR would have the default 20% damage buf against shields, the combat rifle would have the default 10% against armor it already has plus an additional 10% from the skill. Add a damage mod, and proficiency skills and you'll have a suit that can eat through both armor tanks and shield tanks at the cost of module slots and mobility. Marston VC, STB Director
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 752	Posted - 2014.02.12 17:49:00 - [10] - Quote Look at the new Sentinels though. Cal Sent gets 3% / lv shield damage reduction to Blasters and 2% / lv shield damage reduction to lasers. Blasters and Lasers both have damage bonus to shields, which is now washed out. You'll have to use projectiles or rails against Cal Sent to avoid his dmg soak. But those weapons are already reduced against shield and he's the highest shield Sentinel there is. Look at the Amarr Sent next. Armor resistance to rails and projectiles, and the most armor. So you either do enhanced damage with the category that he soaks, or weak damage against the category he's strongest in. Additionally you also can't choose to target armor first anyway. So do you engage with a weapon that is strong v shields, and give up your position only to turn almost instantly switch to a new gun? Scouts will still melt under fire, regardless of the shield/armor choice. Well tanked scouts sit maybe at 400 to 500 eHP, race dependent. On your examples, you were talking about a difference on 40 dmg. With only 400 health, that's the difference of dropping the scout immediately or leaving him at 10% health, which you can just reapply with another 1 to 2 bullets. So, Sentinels can tank the damage buff with their damage reduction, and Scouts just die anyway. So the Medium Frames are the only ones who need to worry about the new Commando. At that point it comes down to walking speed, grenades, and the fact that Assaults are all getting bonuses to the operation of their guns, rather than the power. An Assault suit will have better aim, better clip sizes, or faster reloads than Commandos. All in all, let's see how the TTK levels out. Commandos will definitely be the true damage dealers, but not necessarily the best for every situation.

Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 647	Posted - 2014.02.12 17:53:00 - [11] - Quote I'm going to point out that CCP used the word "possibly" which is clearly visible in the OP. So there's that. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9353	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:09:00 - [12] - Quote Honestly, such a change will just lead to everyone brick tanking. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6630	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:19:00 - [13] - Quote "Possibly" I was a Commando before it was cool And Aero said unto his children, "LET THERE BE A REGISTRY" CPM Info and Q&A -Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6630	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:21:00 - [14] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Logically I still dont like the idea of proficiency giving only a damage modifier to armor or shields. It doesnt make sense. - do you fire a weapon at a different angle or certain RPM to get more damage versus one or the other. Proficiency should give a damage buff or not (give something else like efficacy of damage mods or weapon customization mods) I think the idea of proficiency only affecting armor/shield is terrible as well, though I'd say a change is still needed. I'd like to see Proficiency skills give bonuses towards specific attributes on a per weapon basis. Something like how shotgun proficiency is ROF. And Aero said unto his children, "LET THERE BE A REGISTRY" CPM Info and Q&A -Status: Open
xSir Campsalotx G0DS AM0NG MEN Dark Taboo 109	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:45:00 - [15] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: Look at the new Sentinels though. Cal Sent gets 3% / lv shield damage reduction to Blasters and 2% / lv shield damage reduction to lasers. Blasters and Lasers both have damage bonus to shields, which is now washed out. You'll have to use projectiles or rails against Cal Sent to avoid his dmg soak. But those weapons are already reduced against shield and he's the highest shield Sentinel there is. Look at the Amarr Sent next. Armor resistance to rails and projectiles, and the most armor. So you either do enhanced damage with the category that he soaks, or weak damage against the category he's strongest in. Additionally you also can't choose to target armor first anyway. So do you engage with a weapon that is strong v shields, and give up your position only to turn almost instantly switch to a new gun? Scouts will still melt under fire, regardless of the shield/armor choice. Well tanked scouts sit maybe at 400 to 500 eHP, race dependent. On your examples, you were talking about a difference on 40 dmg. With only 400 health, that's the difference of dropping the scout immediately or leaving him at 10% health, which you can just reapply with another 1 to 2 bullets. So, Sentinels can tank the damage buff with their damage reduction, and Scouts just die anyway. So the Medium Frames are the only ones who need to worry about the new Commando. At that point it comes down to walking speed, grenades, and the fact that Assaults are all getting bonuses to the operation of their guns, rather than the power. An Assault suit will have better aim, better clip sizes, or faster reloads than Commandos. All in all, let's see how the TTK levels out. Commandos will definitely be the true damage dealers, but not necessarily the best for every situation. Just FYI gal scouts can get close to 1000hp, same for Amarr, cals and mins can get around 850 HP.
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution 4987	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:49:00 - [16] - Quote After 1.8 I predict that this game will suck even more. Commandos with a 10% bonus to damage before Damage mods and proficiency? Lol Heavies with 25% resistance to certain things dominating CQC? Commandos will rule at longer ranges while Heavies with HMGs kill everyone and anyone in CQC. > GÇ£I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.GÇ¥ -Oscar Wilde
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2925	Posted - 2014.02.12 18:51:00 - [17] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: After 1.8 I predict that this game will suck even more. Commandos with a 10% bonus to damage before Damage mods and proficiency? Lol Heavies with 25% resistance to certain things dominating CQC? Commandos will rule at longer ranges while Heavies with HMGs kill everyone and anyone in CQC. Patrick, you're a logi. Just rep everyone and be happy about all the new heavies and commandos Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES Legacy Rising 614	Posted - 2014.02.12 19:00:00 - [18] - Quote In 80% of situations I still predict TTK will be too low to notice any sort of difference. Maybe on heavies with their huge HP and buffed resistances and possibly on tanked out proto suits in proto engagements. However for the normal / casual playerbase TTK will still be so fast I doubt it will make too much difference for what we have now. I would love to be proven wrong and I would even go as far as to say make the weapons even more BIAS to the type of HP they are dealing damage too. Make them 50% or less effective against the tank type they are NOT specialised to fire at.
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution 4987	Posted - 2014.02.12 19:01:00 - [19] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Patrick, you're a logi. Just rep everyone and be happy about all the new heavies and commandos I might..... depends on if I go Minmatar or Caldari Logi. > GÇ£I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.GÇ¥ -Oscar Wilde
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES Legacy Rising 614	Posted - 2014.02.12 19:01:00 - [20] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: After 1.8 I predict that this game will suck even more. Commandos with a 10% bonus to damage before Damage mods and proficiency? Lol Heavies with 25% resistance to certain things dominating CQC? Commandos will rule at longer ranges while Heavies with HMGs kill everyone and anyone in CQC. Heavies right now are quite powerful out to about 40-50 meters. I predict after 1.8 they will be even more so. However that is their role i guess. The more I play the more I wish I was in my tanker character.

xSir Campsalotx G0DS AM0NG MEN Dark Taboo 110	Posted - 2014.02.12 22:47:00 - [21] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Patrick57 wrote: After 1.8 I predict that this game will suck even more. Commandos with a 10% bonus to damage before Damage mods and proficiency? Lol Heavies with 25% resistance to certain things dominating CQC? Commandos will rule at longer ranges while Heavies with HMGs kill everyone and anyone in CQC. Heavies right now are quite powerful out to about 40-50 meters. I predict after 1.8 they will be even more so. However that is their role i guess. The more I play the more I wish I was in my tanker character. The only way a heavy is powerful past 20m is if he's using a rifle HMG only has around a 34m optimal range but with dispersion I don't fire past 20m unless they are hurt badly, militia or not aiming my way.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2310	Posted - 2014.02.12 22:52:00 - [22] - Quote I see a lot of your mentioning the word "possibly" but the thing is, TTK and weapons will be/feel better with this new proficiency bonus...It's just that with this change, commandos gain a very effective advantage over most other players. I honestly would like to see some sort of advantage like this, but I feel that we need to understand all of the possible effects of these changes before they're implemented. Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7002	Posted - 2014.02.12 22:57:00 - [23] - Quote Commando's are already good suits..... but now you fear them? I name all of your cowards! Face the new Commando like a brave...person..... without complaining and moaning your fits wont retain their longstanding dominance of all battlefield aspects. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6652	Posted - 2014.02.12 23:00:00 - [24] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Commando's are already good suits..... but now you fear them? I name all of your cowards! Face the new Commando like a brave...person..... without complaining and moaning your fits wont retain their longstanding dominance of all battlefield aspects. Heaven forbid anything other than a medium suit actually being able to do anything. And Aero said unto his children, "LET THERE BE A REGISTRY" CPM Info and Q&A -Status: Open
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7005	Posted - 2014.02.12 23:02:00 - [25] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Commando's are already good suits..... but now you fear them? I name all of your cowards! Face the new Commando like a brave...person..... without complaining and moaning your fits wont retain their longstanding dominance of all battlefield aspects. Heaven forbid anything other than a medium suit actually being able to do anything. I even started RPing as a Commando Aero.....look what you did to me. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 196	Posted - 2014.02.12 23:16:00 - [26] - Quote I'm not playing the game at the moment so sucks for all of you. I'm tired of typing out long responses to this stuff but Ccp doesn't care lol. I think I'd rather just go back to eve if I want to escape to new Eden.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4601	Posted - 2014.02.12 23:23:00 - [27] - Quote Specialized Killing machines , thats what they do,thats what they will be. Still even if a Commando ends up using a SCR + CR to deal massivley with any enemy in matter of seconds there are still thousands of disadvantages to consider.(besides the obvious inutility of the strategy in a 2 v 1 situation) GÖª They are still a Heavy, STlLL SLOW. GÖª Their Radar capabilities are still junk, so is their Scan Profile, meaning there is more chace for EVERYONE to know where they are, and they have VERY little chance to detect enemy units. GÖª Lack of grenades GÖª Unlike Their Sentinel counterparts who have higher HP bases AND Resistances, the commando lacks any serious defensive capabilities: They have higher HP than a Med frame but MEd frames are FASTER AND have enough Slots to reach commando level HP. GÖª Overall speaking. The Commando is BIG, slow , have LESS HP than a Sentinels, a Little more HP than MEd frames (except gallente XD) lack grenades, so at the time of being in a Gunfight, the commando NEEDS these damage advantage over other enemies: Scouts are fast, an be invisible and usually have 1HKO weapons like shotguns , NKs or R/E. Assaults are more mobile and have the ability to tank too. They have DPS bonuses , have equipments AND grenades. Sentinels have HEAVY WEAPONS ,taht even if it might not mean an awful LOT in infantry combat at the moment ,the HMG works pretty darn well as it is. Heavies can ALSO equip Light weapons, HAVE grenades while sacrificing their equipment,but have massive HP values and soon , resistances to damage types. ETC...... SO.In other words , COmmandos NEED this bonus in order to have a PLACE in the battlefield and be able to compete. IMO at least. Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2465	Posted - 2014.03.07 22:58:00 - [28] - Quote Bumping this because of the new changes Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7228	Posted - 2014.03.07 23:02:00 - [29] - Quote At least my knives remain unaffected. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2466	Posted - 2014.03.07 23:10:00 - [30] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: At least my knives remain unaffected. So many people will say heavies are OP, but their one true counter is the scout. People just need to realize that they can't just rely on playing solo to win fights against heavies. Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!



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