DUST Search - Why Do Scanners Even Exist?

TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:

1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:

TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:

i swear, some of these people need to learn how to read. i am a SCOUT, so i don't normally have problems with scanners.

what i'm saying is that as soon as i stepped out of that, i couldn't really do anything. i was trying to play a different style, but it was near impossible, because of scanners. while i disagree with it, i don't blame anyone who specced FoTM brick tank logi or whatever. if your not in a a dampened suit or a brick tanked suit, your pretty much useless, and THIS is the main reason why you don't see much variety in DUST. the second you want to try something different than the current meta, scanners prevent that.

I am mainly a non-scout who have recently ventured into scouts (Tranquil you and I have played together but I don't think you knew it was me, think I dropped a 40 kill game in a minja while running with ya :D) and scanners have never bothered me.

Getting scanned sucks yeah but it also means that I don't have to go to my opponent to take em out lol, being scanned means that as an assault I become the main threat targeted allowing for scouts as yourself to move into the flank and avoid the main line of fire.

Im excited to see the changes to come in 1.8 for both the scout suits and the active scanners, it can be done right and in PC it is less of a problem than it is in pubs (mostly due to both teams most definitely always running scanners, but this places a big advantage for talented, damped out scouts)

i knew it was you :D

sure, scanners aren't a problem when you're in a brick tanked suit or dampened suit, but i was using a 300 ehp melee fit, so i didn't stand much of a chance in head on confrontations, but because of scanners, i coudn't really flank unless i switched to my scout suit.

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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1451	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:03:00 - [1] - Quote i am a scout, so scanners aren't usually a problem, and the only other thing i run other than scout is a 550 melee damage cal med frame ck.0. my melee fit is arguably the hardest thing to use in the game, BECAUSE OF SCANNERS. it has about 300 to 350 ehp, but unlike my scout suit, IT GETS SCANNED 24/7. due to this, i can rarely sneak up on people effectively to melee them, not to mention, getting one shot by ScRs. it's amazing how terrible all the "L33T" players in the game are when they don't have their precious scanners. not just their situational awareness, but their gun game is terrible too. i know it's getting nerfed, and that's great, but i would like to know why the hell they were even put into the game. i've never heard of a mechanic in a game that allows someone to see everyone, even through walls from 150 meters away. i'm honestly curious, was there an actual plan for the scanner when they put it in, other than to break the game? Anime > EVERYTHING
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9285	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:04:00 - [2] - Quote It's a terrible mechanic. I would not be opposed to them being axed completely. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1176	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:15:00 - [3] - Quote You know, two complex dampeners will get your medium frame under a proto scanner, right? Just sayin'. How can you b**** about scanners when there is a mechanic that aloes you to defeat them. Now I am nots saying that I think loosing two low slots to counter one equipment is fair, but that is a different mater. A balance mater and should be adressed as such ("unbalanced") not removed. {:)}{3GÇó>
Justice Prevails 181	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:15:00 - [4] - Quote Not a big fan of them. They eliminate the art of flanking and using cover to get a drop on an opponent. Great job, team. Head back to the MCC for debriefing and cocktails.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1601	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:15:00 - [5] - Quote As a scout you should appreciate it, at least if you scan before crossing the road, you'll know if there is a guy with a rail rifle that will shoot you from nowhere. 1.8 it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes...
buzzzzzzz killllllllll TRA1LBLAZERS 236	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:15:00 - [6] - Quote remove the scanner ccp
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9287	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:23:00 - [7] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: You know, two complex dampeners will get your medium frame under a proto scanner, right? Just sayin'. How can you b**** about scanners when there is a mechanic that alows you to defeat them. Now I am nots saying that I think loosing two low slots to counter one equipment is fair, but that is a different mater. A balance mater and should be adressed as such ("unbalanced") not removed. Sure, there's a mechanic that vaguely allows you to counter them. That doesn't change the massive advantage the scanner gives you much. The scanner gives huge advantages, massive ones. You have to sacrifice a lot to evade it - those two dampeners could be the equivalent of over 200 armour. Using a scanner, many weapons become unbalanced. I'm sure QQ about weapons with non-standard balancing mechanics like the RR and SCR are QQed about because people can pre-charge as they see someone coming around a corner. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3253	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:28:00 - [8] - Quote I have Profile Dampening Level V and usually slap at least one Complex Dampener on all of my suits - I have no problems. I'm sorry, but I'm filing this one away as butthurt and T_T I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
Chris F2112 Pradox One Proficiency V. 556	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:29:00 - [9] - Quote Perhaps you guys don't remember the game without them but the game is much better with them. The nerf will do much to balance them out right away and buffing scouts will help as well.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1178	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:37:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: You know, two complex dampeners will get your medium frame under a proto scanner, right? Just sayin'. How can you b**** about scanners when there is a mechanic that alows you to defeat them. Now I am nots saying that I think loosing two low slots to counter one equipment is fair, but that is a different mater. A balance mater and should be adressed as such ("unbalanced") not removed. Sure, there's a mechanic that vaguely allows you to counter them. That doesn't change the massive advantage the scanner gives you much. The scanner gives huge advantages, massive ones. You have to sacrifice a lot to evade it - those two dampeners could be the equivalent of over 200 armour. Using a scanner, many weapons become unbalanced. I'm sure QQ about weapons with non-standard balancing mechanics like the RR and SCR are QQed about because people can pre-charge as they see someone coming around a corner. Like I said, I never said that it was balanced. IMO, in order to balance the scanner you need to introduce a hard counter. Something like a deployable stationary jammer, with a jamming radius of maybe 60-80 meters. Also, maybe another type of equipment that introduces ghost/decoy signals. With the intro suction of such equipment you would very suddenly see a reduction in the use of the scanner, because of the potential for them to be made unreliable, or rendered outright unusable. {:)}{3GÇó>

COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 194	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:44:00 - [11] - Quote Scanners are in the game because electronic/stealth/intel denial warfare is destined to be part of the game and you're either going to have to deal with it in your fittings or just deal with being affected. You can't have you're cake and eat it too sorry there honey boo boo. Subterfuge and terrorist GOD in the making Proud Minmatar - Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL Love the Art of War
Soraya Xel The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1451	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:47:00 - [12] - Quote EWAR is a huge part of New Eden, and has an important role to play in DUST. The current scanners have some serious game design flaws, and fixes coming should alleviate those problems, and balance them better in gameplay. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6447	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:49:00 - [13] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: I have Profile Dampening Level V and usually slap at least one Complex Dampener on all of my suits - I have no problems. I'm sorry, but I'm filing this one away as butthurt and T_T Doesn't that tell you something? Profile dampeners being standard issue on your suit? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 1798	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:50:00 - [14] - Quote scanners sadly seem very similar to a suggestion I made awhile back, of course it was supposed to be built into sniper rifles to give them a spotting role on the battle field =(
Akdhar Saif Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 248	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:50:00 - [15] - Quote Read the thread in the Features and Ideas Sub-Forum for the 1.8 Patch. It mentions at the bottom that scanners will be changed so they take a snapshot scan preventing players from getting the 360 scan. Here I found it for you. There's also a cooldown increase I forgot to mention.
Turtle Hermit Roshi D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 113	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:06:00 - [16] - Quote yeah use some dampeners bro but scanners are anoying i remeber when everyone was like whats a scanner but then i think it was 1.7 made them a necesity which was nice cus now scouts wernt being scaned pasivly by our dropsuit scan precision still anoying tho Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for, welcome to New Eden. KAMEHAMEHA professional Heavy for hire
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3262	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:09:00 - [17] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: I have Profile Dampening Level V and usually slap at least one Complex Dampener on all of my suits - I have no problems. I'm sorry, but I'm filing this one away as butthurt and T_T Doesn't that tell you something? Profile dampeners being standard issue on your suit? Even without Profile Dampeners, I can slide under basic scanners in a medium frame. In pubs most people either run basic or advanced scanners - rarely if ever proto. Scanners really aren't as much as a problem that people make them seem to be; if anything I'd say more people are annoyed by the message constantly on their screens than the actual scanner mechanic itself. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
CrotchGrab 360 The Men In The Mirror 1428	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:11:00 - [18] - Quote I've called many times for them to be removed but CCP act as if I'm taking their only son away from them. YOU WILL NEVER achieve a balanced game if you allow new players to be targeted as soon as they spawn, their every movement tracked. You can't plan, you can't flank, you can't use tactics because the enemy knows where you are, where you're going, and where to shoot you from! and so do 5 of his buddies! They ALL rush towards you. it got to the point where I was being scanned before I had even moved. It's ridiculous and I refuse to play this broken game until it's addressed...amongst 1000 other things. DUST VIDEOS
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2777	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:14:00 - [19] - Quote I just think there needs to be more out there to defeat them or "fool" them. What if all suits but heavies with Dampening L5 could defeat ADV scanners? Scouts being able to defeat proto scanners UNLESS the user (or Gal Logi) fits a precision enhancement module. What if there was a different type of scanner that defeated scans for all mercs within a certain range of the person using the scan defeater? ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 217	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:15:00 - [20] - Quote They should just introduce jammers which prevent enemy scans. Because, that's why.

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1180	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:15:00 - [21] - Quote CrotchGrab 360 wrote: I've called many times for them to be removed but CCP act as if I'm taking their only son away from them. YOU WILL NEVER achieve a balanced game if you allow new players to be targeted as soon as they spawn, their every movement tracked. You can't plan, you can't flank, you can't use tactics because the enemy knows where you are, where you're going, and where to shoot you from! and so do 5 of his buddies! They ALL rush towards you. it got to the point where I was being scanned before I had even moved. It's ridiculous and I refuse to play this broken game until it's addressed...amongst 1000 other things. Can I have your ISK then? {:)}{3GÇó>
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 217	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:23:00 - [22] - Quote You can see the line drawn once again between those who run proto, with plenty if slots and CPU/pg, and those who don't. Those who run in regular squads, where scanner info is shared and there are multiple scanners being used and those who don't. Scanners are one of those things that make the powerful much more powerful and the new player much weaker. That isn't. An argument for its existence either way, just an observation. Because, that's why.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 395	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:28:00 - [23] - Quote Try harder. Put a few dampners on your CK.0, and blammo, it gets under everything except proto scanners...and you don't see many of those in pubs.
echo47 Minmatar Republic 189	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:52:00 - [24] - Quote Yeah individually dampeners, properly skilled up can beat scanners. The thing is that heavy trying to take the objective with you gives your position away. Dampeners are not a proper counter for a squad based game. A leadership mod that reduces a squad members profile with in a certain proximity of each other that is a counter. So far whenever something new is introduced in this game its like no one takes the time to introduce the counter along with it.. So what happens 3-4 months then a nerf. Then its oops we nerfed it too much. If scanners and a proper counter were introduced at the same time there wouldn't be any issues right now. Would the TAC AR in its former glory be OP compared to the RR and CR of 1.8? I would rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1454	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:59:00 - [25] - Quote shaman oga wrote: As a scout you should appreciate it, at least if you scan before crossing the road, you'll know if there is a guy with a rail rifle that will shoot you from nowhere. i don't even run scanners, and no, i shouldn't appreciate them. i understand why everybody brick tanks now. because if you don't, you'll be as good as useless unless you can avoid scanners. Anime > EVERYTHING
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1454	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:00:00 - [26] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Try harder. Put a few dampners on your CK.0, and blammo, it gets under everything except proto scanners...and you don't see many of those in pubs. i'm using a melee fit. i need those lows for speed and stamina. Anime > EVERYTHING
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1454	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:02:00 - [27] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: I have Profile Dampening Level V and usually slap at least one Complex Dampener on all of my suits - I have no problems. I'm sorry, but I'm filing this one away as butthurt and T_T did you not read that i was using a 300 ehp MELEE fit? i can't use those lows to dampen, i need speed and stamina. Anime > EVERYTHING
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 1097	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:03:00 - [28] - Quote Have you ever played Blacklight Retribution? I digress, Scanners are definitely too powerful but I use them mostly to find Uplinks more than anything, and in PC uplinks are higher in priority than enemy combatants The Sinwarden
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9310	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:08:00 - [29] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Have you ever played Blacklight Retribution? I digress, Scanners are definitely too powerful but I use them mostly to find Uplinks more than anything, and in PC uplinks are higher in priority than enemy combatants In PC, they're still very powerful against enemy combatants. But in pubs, they're terrifying pubstomping tools. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
sabre prime The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 75	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:10:00 - [30] - Quote Scanners are a tricky issue. If implemented properly they could be a cool part of the EWAR aspect of DUST. But the way they have been implemented until now they are just a wall hack, plain and simple. How could CCP implement a "scan angle" and then let people do 360 degree spins? Just not very well thought out. The nerf is very welcome. It's actually not even a nerf; their just making them work as intended with a snapshot scan within the scan angle. Hopefully we'll see less scanning overall after 1.8. On a related note:. Is anything happening to vehicle scanners? I presume they do 360degree scans by default? Desperate attempt to get BPOs

TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1454	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:10:00 - [31] - Quote i swear, some of these people need to learn how to read. i am a SCOUT, so i don't normally have problems with scanners. what i'm saying is that as soon as i stepped out of that, i couldn't really do anything. i was trying to play a different style, but it was near impossible, because of scanners. while i disagree with it, i don't blame anyone who specced FoTM brick tank logi or whatever. if your not in a a dampened suit or a brick tanked suit, your pretty much useless, and THIS is the main reason why you don't see much variety in DUST. the second you want to try something different than the current meta, scanners prevent that. Anime > EVERYTHING
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 684	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:17:00 - [32] - Quote KZ:SF has a very scanner like equipment for its sneaker/sniper class. Anyway, they are introducing a counter, the cloak. I used too complain about scanners but then I took the attitude of "you know where I am, come get some". Now scanners don't bother me so much. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 1099	Posted - 2014.02.11 22:22:00 - [33] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: i swear, some of these people need to learn how to read. i am a SCOUT, so i don't normally have problems with scanners. what i'm saying is that as soon as i stepped out of that, i couldn't really do anything. i was trying to play a different style, but it was near impossible, because of scanners. while i disagree with it, i don't blame anyone who specced FoTM brick tank logi or whatever. if your not in a a dampened suit or a brick tanked suit, your pretty much useless, and THIS is the main reason why you don't see much variety in DUST. the second you want to try something different than the current meta, scanners prevent that. I am mainly a non-scout who have recently ventured into scouts (Tranquil you and I have played together but I don't think you knew it was me, think I dropped a 40 kill game in a minja while running with ya :D) and scanners have never bothered me. Getting scanned sucks yeah but it also means that I don't have to go to my opponent to take em out lol, being scanned means that as an assault I become the main threat targeted allowing for scouts as yourself to move into the flank and avoid the main line of fire. Im excited to see the changes to come in 1.8 for both the scout suits and the active scanners, it can be done right and in PC it is less of a problem than it is in pubs (mostly due to both teams most definitely always running scanners, but this places a big advantage for talented, damped out scouts) The Sinwarden
Kira Takizawa 2Shitz 1Giggle 140	Posted - 2014.02.12 02:10:00 - [34] - Quote shaman oga wrote: As a scout you should appreciate it, at least if you scan before crossing the road, you'll know if there is a guy with a rail rifle that will shoot you from nowhere. Look across the street or rely on your passive scanners...
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2891	Posted - 2014.02.12 02:19:00 - [35] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's a terrible mechanic. I would not be opposed to them being axed completely. The scanner itself isn't bad. It's supposed to be a brief reconnaissance tool, letting you know roughly how many people are on a objective, or to quickly find the mass of players for an OB. It's the 24/7 scanning that is the problem. It'll be cut down in 1.8 (with reduced scan times and increased cooldown), but I still think all scanners should have a max of 5 seconds for visibliity. It's there to tell you where they are, not to track them through walls for the next 30 seconds. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1459	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:04:00 - [36] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: i swear, some of these people need to learn how to read. i am a SCOUT, so i don't normally have problems with scanners. what i'm saying is that as soon as i stepped out of that, i couldn't really do anything. i was trying to play a different style, but it was near impossible, because of scanners. while i disagree with it, i don't blame anyone who specced FoTM brick tank logi or whatever. if your not in a a dampened suit or a brick tanked suit, your pretty much useless, and THIS is the main reason why you don't see much variety in DUST. the second you want to try something different than the current meta, scanners prevent that. I am mainly a non-scout who have recently ventured into scouts (Tranquil you and I have played together but I don't think you knew it was me, think I dropped a 40 kill game in a minja while running with ya :D) and scanners have never bothered me. Getting scanned sucks yeah but it also means that I don't have to go to my opponent to take em out lol, being scanned means that as an assault I become the main threat targeted allowing for scouts as yourself to move into the flank and avoid the main line of fire. Im excited to see the changes to come in 1.8 for both the scout suits and the active scanners, it can be done right and in PC it is less of a problem than it is in pubs (mostly due to both teams most definitely always running scanners, but this places a big advantage for talented, damped out scouts) i knew it was you :D sure, scanners aren't a problem when you're in a brick tanked suit or dampened suit, but i was using a 300 ehp melee fit, so i didn't stand much of a chance in head on confrontations, but because of scanners, i coudn't really flank unless i switched to my scout suit. Anime > EVERYTHING
Thumb Green Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 764	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:15:00 - [37] - Quote Well on the bright side for you, we used to have passive scanning that was on par if not better than the scanners and that's before you include the fact that passive scanning is always scanning. Seriously we used to be able to see people spawn in up to at least 100 meters away on the minimap. Hell I remember picking people up on the other side of a skirmish map even without a precision enhancer (though I did have the skill up). Support Orbital Spawns
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 2391	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:21:00 - [38] - Quote They should be a deployable object with limited use. Basically like a Nano, but covering a larger area (<100m), destoyable, and a maximum of 2 deployed. Dust514 has a place in this world - buried next to 23,000 copies of E.T. in some remote desert location.
safura trotsky Kill Mode Activated 2	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:22:00 - [39] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: i am a scout, so scanners aren't usually a problem, and the only other thing i run other than scout is a 550 melee damage cal med frame ck.0. my melee fit is arguably the hardest thing to use in the game, BECAUSE OF SCANNERS. it has about 300 to 350 ehp, but unlike my scout suit, IT GETS SCANNED 24/7. due to this, i can rarely sneak up on people effectively to melee them, not to mention, getting one shot by ScRs. it's amazing how terrible all the "L33T" players in the game are when they don't have their precious scanners. not just their situational awareness, but their gun game is terrible too. i know it's getting nerfed, and that's great, but i would like to know why the hell they were even put into the game. i've never heard of a mechanic in a game that allows someone to see everyone, even through walls from 150 meters away. i'm honestly curious, was there an actual plan for the scanner when they put it in, other than to break the game? Their getting nerfed in 1.8, don't stress bro Thanks for picking me up blueberry!...and again...and again...STAHP!!!
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 1109	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:37:00 - [40] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: i swear, some of these people need to learn how to read. i am a SCOUT, so i don't normally have problems with scanners. what i'm saying is that as soon as i stepped out of that, i couldn't really do anything. i was trying to play a different style, but it was near impossible, because of scanners. while i disagree with it, i don't blame anyone who specced FoTM brick tank logi or whatever. if your not in a a dampened suit or a brick tanked suit, your pretty much useless, and THIS is the main reason why you don't see much variety in DUST. the second you want to try something different than the current meta, scanners prevent that. I am mainly a non-scout who have recently ventured into scouts (Tranquil you and I have played together but I don't think you knew it was me, think I dropped a 40 kill game in a minja while running with ya :D) and scanners have never bothered me. Getting scanned sucks yeah but it also means that I don't have to go to my opponent to take em out lol, being scanned means that as an assault I become the main threat targeted allowing for scouts as yourself to move into the flank and avoid the main line of fire. Im excited to see the changes to come in 1.8 for both the scout suits and the active scanners, it can be done right and in PC it is less of a problem than it is in pubs (mostly due to both teams most definitely always running scanners, but this places a big advantage for talented, damped out scouts) i knew it was you :D sure, scanners aren't a problem when you're in a brick tanked suit or dampened suit, but i was using a 300 ehp melee fit, so i didn't stand much of a chance in head on confrontations, but because of scanners, i coudn't really flank unless i switched to my scout suit. How did you know?? The Sinwarden



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