DUST Search - Balanced Fittings Means Boring Battles

Awry Barux wrote:

hgghyujh wrote:

and yet the perfect imbalance video gets linked again, it is true that "perfect balance" is boring and that that is what too many people are pushing for, actually the OPs argument is null and void because half of this games history is a "perfect balance" with powerful nich weapons being roughly equal to the jack of all trades, which means the JOAT aka the AR(untill this build) has been the most used most effective weapon, with little to no diversity suit set up, so yes we need to stop looking at a such a drab sense of balance because it makes for a boring game, on the other hand straight imbalance is not the answer either IE the massive gap between new players and vets,(30milSP player here).

so watch the vid below and try to think of balance in that way, also try to understand the underlying game mechanics, IE when you have a gun that cant miss if the target is anywhere in the reticule you can't use fire rate to balance that weapon despite that being the better option then using DPS.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De31OSVZF77w&ei=hOb6UpLGMIWS1AGZioGQCg&usg=AFQjCNHI6XExdHeP-gHsdd0qxT_OsLAuLw&sig2=vL6HIHfdHEcpPF7FplymQQ

I can't be bothered to spend 6 minutes listening to some youtube video, so I'm just going to comment on your actual post.

I think we have two different definitions of perfect balance...to me, "perfect balance" does not mean that powerful niche weapons are equal to the jack of all trades weapon within their niche. In fact, it means precisely the opposite... a well-balanced game should have the JOAT win outside the opponent's niche, while the niche weapon wins if the opponent can successfully manipulate the game flow enough to use their niche weapon at optimal efficiency.

Balance to me should mean that different playstyles (i.e. heavy vs scout) have an equal chance of killing each other, with the winner being decided by which player, squad, or team can force their opponent(s) into a situation where their chosen playstyle is at a disadvantage.

HMG heavy versus a JOAT rifle is a good example- the heavy wants to bait the rifle user in to close quarters, where the HMG's superior DPS can shred them, while the rifler wants to catch the heavy off guard at range and pick them off. This is where tactics and teamwork come in, and where the game really gets fun.


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hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 275	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:25:00 - [1] - Quote and yet the perfect imbalance video gets linked again, it is true that "perfect balance" is boring and that that is what too many people are pushing for, actually the OPs argument is null and void because half of this games history is a "perfect balance" with powerful nich weapons being roughly equal to the jack of all trades, which means the JOAT aka the AR(untill this build) has been the most used most effective weapon, with little to no diversity suit set up, so yes we need to stop looking at a such a drab sense of balance because it makes for a boring game, on the other hand straight imbalance is not the answer either IE the massive gap between new players and vets,(30milSP player here). so watch the vid below and try to think of balance in that way, also try to understand the underlying game mechanics, IE when you have a gun that cant miss if the target is anywhere in the reticule you can't use fire rate to balance that weapon despite that being the better option then using DPS. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De31OSVZF77w&ei=hOb6UpLGMIWS1AGZioGQCg&usg=AFQjCNHI6XExdHeP-gHsdd0qxT_OsLAuLw&sig2=vL6HIHfdHEcpPF7FplymQQ
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 278	Posted - 2014.02.12 05:57:00 - [2] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: hgghyujh wrote: and yet the perfect imbalance video gets linked again, it is true that "perfect balance" is boring and that that is what too many people are pushing for, actually the OPs argument is null and void because half of this games history is a "perfect balance" with powerful nich weapons being roughly equal to the jack of all trades, which means the JOAT aka the AR(untill this build) has been the most used most effective weapon, with little to no diversity suit set up, so yes we need to stop looking at a such a drab sense of balance because it makes for a boring game, on the other hand straight imbalance is not the answer either IE the massive gap between new players and vets,(30milSP player here). so watch the vid below and try to think of balance in that way, also try to understand the underlying game mechanics, IE when you have a gun that cant miss if the target is anywhere in the reticule you can't use fire rate to balance that weapon despite that being the better option then using DPS. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De31OSVZF77w&ei=hOb6UpLGMIWS1AGZioGQCg&usg=AFQjCNHI6XExdHeP-gHsdd0qxT_OsLAuLw&sig2=vL6HIHfdHEcpPF7FplymQQ I can't be bothered to spend 6 minutes listening to some youtube video, so I'm just going to comment on your actual post. I think we have two different definitions of perfect balance...to me, "perfect balance" does not mean that powerful niche weapons are equal to the jack of all trades weapon within their niche. In fact, it means precisely the opposite... a well-balanced game should have the JOAT win outside the opponent's niche, while the niche weapon wins if the opponent can successfully manipulate the game flow enough to use their niche weapon at optimal efficiency. Balance to me should mean that different playstyles (i.e. heavy vs scout) have an equal chance of killing each other, with the winner being decided by which player, squad, or team can force their opponent(s) into a situation where their chosen playstyle is at a disadvantage. HMG heavy versus a JOAT rifle is a good example- the heavy wants to bait the rifle user in to close quarters, where the HMG's superior DPS can shred them, while the rifler wants to catch the heavy off guard at range and pick them off. This is where tactics and teamwork come in, and where the game really gets fun. since you chose to be dissmisive of my youtube video I chose to not bother spending 6 min reading your post.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 278	Posted - 2014.02.12 06:08:00 - [3] - Quote jk yep I agree with you, kinda the idea is right but the JOAT has always be on way too even a footing I mean look at the MD at its hight I could kill every MD user unless he was kill stealing some one else at which point he could of done it better with an AR, but thats because I knew the strengths and weaknesses of the MD, and while you are probably saying working as intended, I say no because if I am caught out of position by a weapon that is made for that exact purpose I should win at most 1out 10 not 9 out of 10. Up until recently its been the same with the HMG and EVERY NICHE WEAPON IN THE GAME. So while yes the arguing for "balance" has been the main cause of this at no sustained point has this game come close to the perfect imbalance. I strongly suggest watching that ::disdain::you tube video::/disdain:: I think you will find it enlightening and probably exactly what you are talking about but better argued.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 278	Posted - 2014.02.12 06:12:00 - [4] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Vengeful Dead wrote: As with all combat related games Dust has a lot of players who call for balancing and nerfing any equipment, weapon, dropsuit, or vehicle that they think beats them too quick. Is that really what everyone wants though? Making all of those things balanced and equal would destroy the diversity and detail in a lot of the battle strategy and tactics that true Dust junkies love so much. Every item in the Dust Universe is unique being that it has its own benefits and weaknesses, and its that diversity that sparks the need for tactics in combat, it fuels an exciting battle of technology and strategy. Okay. Nah seriously it's a joke ? "Diversity" is TankStomp ? Weakness of RR is ? Before trying to protect your OP weapons just THINKS how fun the game is when the whole game is fuckd up. It's not FUN. Maybe it is for you to push a button to win and kill everything. But we're not an AI, be killed or kill people in a single button without any difficulty IS BORING. Actually the RR is very weak at close range due to its fire rate, unless you have AA on then bullet mag makes it cake to hit EVERY ROUND, that is the issue and what is also causing such a short TTL, it also weakens already niche weapons(IE the ones that don't have BM) because they don't hit reliably when they bank on making each round unlike rifles. OP is right I mean every one argues for balance, but in the end they mean at their best every thing should be the same, and that means that guns that are more flexible and therefor easier to use will be the best all the time and every thing else will be as good as the best for less time then it takes to get a kill(assuming the target is not a moron I know a big assumption). do you see how that is broken???
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 278	Posted - 2014.02.12 06:24:00 - [5] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Vengeful Dead wrote: As with all combat related games Dust has a lot of players who call for balancing and nerfing any equipment, weapon, dropsuit, or vehicle that they think beats them too quick. Is that really what everyone wants though? Making all of those things balanced and equal would destroy the diversity and detail in a lot of the battle strategy and tactics that true Dust junkies love so much. Every item in the Dust Universe is unique being that it has its own benefits and weaknesses, and its that diversity that sparks the need for tactics in combat, it fuels an exciting battle of technology and strategy. Okay. Nah seriously it's a joke ? "Diversity" is TankStomp ? Weakness of RR is ? Before trying to protect your OP weapons just THINKS how fun the game is when the whole game is fuckd up. It's not FUN. Maybe it is for you to push a button to win and kill everything. But we're not an AI, be killed or kill people in a single button without any difficulty IS BORING. also tank stomp is a bad example, you are complaining because you and no one else wants to be bothered using the right tool for the right job. the only time I get tank stomped is when I don't feel like picking up the slack of people like you. granted AV needs some love but I still manage to keep my team safe and functioning with it. HEY CCP HOW ABOUT SOME WP FOR IT then we might see some skill and dedicated AV so you don't have to ******* nerf tanks into uselessness again.. seriously tho I don't get the RR hate the CR is as bad if not worse. back to tanks, as dedicated infantry and one time dedicated AV this is the most well balanced tanks have ever been, if you are not a tanker or dedicated AV you can shut your pie hole about tanks.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 278	Posted - 2014.02.12 06:29:00 - [6] - Quote actually on the subject of tanks CCP needs to make supply depots dropable so that way more situational weapons can be used in hard fought battles. this would also give tanks a role as taking out depots behind enemy line would be a reasonable tactical decision based on enemy position and armament and not a selfish act of **** my teams needs.