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David Spd
Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2014.02.09 01:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I disagree with these bonuses. Assaults are combat oriented. Thus things like plates and extenders are off the table.
Even with as messed up as it initially sounds, I also found this statement to make a hell of a lot of sense.
Since you specifically said "plates and extenders", does this mean you are against the idea of say... Regulators or Rechargers?
In my opinion Assaults being "combat oriented" also means that.. theoretically they are exposed to more direct combat than other suits. I'm a Caldari Assault main that prefers mid to long ranged engagements (and was even during the "Slayer Logi" debacle) I find faster and more efficient shield recharge to be surprisingly more effective for "skirmish" type play than simply attempting to "out-tank" your opponent. As a Caldari using a Caldari Rifle, I was a lot better at doing what I was "supposed to" with this type of fitting.
Obviously not having bonuses to Extenders as Caldari kind of sucks, but at the same time we shouldn't be in the kind of situations where extender stacking is absolutely necessary to ensure survival. Hopefully 1.8 will shift suit roles and playstyles into a much more..."focused" area than currently.
I may come off as a bit arrogant with my next statement, and with the game being as messed up as it is I am somewhat wrong, but at the same time I feel like I need to say it.
Assaults (Caldari in particular) need a mixture of damage, defense and mobility to do what they need to do. Just enough survival to not be scouts, and just enough damage to not be Sentinels. We have to sacrifice something, and the current build's "Stack defenses or die without doing anything" is a part of the messed up time to kill.
As far as I understand it, the logic behind the Caldari reload is to encourage aggression and "Assault" type gameplay. We don't know 100% what the TTK is going to be in 1.8, nor do we know how all these moving parts are going to affect one another. At first glance the reload bonus seems a bit pointless, but at the same time it may both be necessary to compensate for the Rail Rifle nerf, and also help Caldari soldiers keep pressure on their targets at the distance the weapon is intended to be used. Caldari typically have higher shields than the other races (if EVE is the example that is being followed) so we all ready start ahead of them in terms of immediate defenses.
CCP seems to be building suit bonuses under the impression that you're going to be playing as a certain race, wielding that race's weapon. So Caldari will have a powerful mid-ranged weapon, higher base shields and be able to reload their weapon faster than most other races (thanks to the bonus). The Rail rifle tends to reload fairly slowly without heavy skill investment otherwise. That to me sounds like quite a dangerous combination.
The only way it would be underwhelming is if you're playing the game in 1.8 the way you play the game now: as a frontline Caldari soldier stacking shield extenders and nothing else. Think outside the box for a little while. Read some of the other threads CCP has made, and try looking up Iron Wolf Saber's thread about the mantras. Also keep in mind that IWS has access to information that WE don't, and also tends to drop some clues about content under NDA that has more than once landed him in hot water. He's trying to tell us, a lot of people are just really not paying attention or listening.
CCP has always called Dust 514 a "thinking man's shooter" but there hasn't been a whole lot of anything to think about. I get the feeling 1.8 will change that based on the information we've been getting so far.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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David Spd
Caldari State
125
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Posted - 2014.02.09 03:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:To clarify a bit of translation : Assaults are not supposed to be ones being the ones exposed to combat, they're the ones exposing others to combat. HP recoverability would be more in theme in this as it less down time taking a breather before pressuring back on the enemy again but this is better saved for type 2s if that ever happened again which unfortunately until their icde happens is not looking good on the forecast.
Thank you. I think I might not have explained that well enough, but that's essentially what I meant.
Assaults get in there, agitate the opposition, but don't really "tank" anything. At least, that's the idea. 1.7 isn't really played that way.
I stopped stacking extenders and instead put on a couple regulators and rechargers and suddenly people had a LOT more problems engaging me without running into the brick wall that was my team (or a smart Sentinel).
I still get enough kills to satisfy myself, but I'm not "mvp" according to scoreboard.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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David Spd
Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.02.09 04:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
NK Scout wrote:Thr caldari bonus is loads of useless, if I wanted less reload I'd go commando or get the reload skill, I never have reload issurs, EVER
Choosing Commando over Assault is making a very large decision that isn't just about reload, and if you want to play Commando in an "assault" role then you're playing incredibly inefficiently. Movement speed and equipment slot differences are obvious reasons.
Reload skill PLUS reload bonus makes for (if other people's math is to believed) the second fastest reloaded light weapon in the game. Caldari Assault/Logistics suits aren't (nor were they ever) designed to be frontline tanks. Problems with global damage, lack of racial parity and Shield Extenders allowed Caldari soldiers to tank in a way CCP never intended. Notice how shield stacking became much less effective after Scrambler rifle came out, then was further nerfed with negative stats connected to extenders?
Even the Caldari's weapon is designed and intended for mid-range engagements (because of it's slower rate of fire, but higher damage and accuracy with an impressive zoom). Longer ranges = more damage dropoff which means more ammunition needed to get the same results. If you're playing Caldari the way they're supposed to be played then you're going to be reloading more often than most people. That's just the way of it.
Caldari are intended (and designed) to be engaging enemies at longer ranges than the other races. Because of these indended ranges, Caldari have better shielding but less armor (shields replenish faster than armor so "hit and move" gamplay is favored), and have a weapon better suited to longer ranges (accurate, high damage with lower RoF to make controlling recoil more skillful and a respectable zoom with very good clarity and dot sight). With an incredible reload that means you will be better at engaging enemies at ranges that will put them at a significant disadvantage and will be able to keep them at that range because you will have incredibly low downtime between magazines
If a Caldari Assault with cover & a Rail Rifle manages to catch you out in the open at a respectable distance you might as well take a bite of your grenade because it is highly unlikely you will get to your destination without re-routing to the Caldari and/or dying in the process. He or she will likely not only be able to do more damage than you more accurately, but will also be able to recharge any damage you do to them faster (due to you doing reduced damage thanks to range) to top off their superior shields, and reload before you get anywhere near their position to finish you off.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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David Spd
Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2014.02.10 11:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Neo Rinzler wrote:Caldari Weapons already have a reload skill, 1/2 a second faster reload than another suit using the same weapon is NOT a good enough reason to use the Caldari Assault 3.2 to 2.04 with max reload and max cal assault or 2.62 with just max reload skill
Seriously 2.04 v 2.62 ..... 2 Million extra SP for 0.58 faster reload ?? This is why it is such a terrible bonus
in fact I wouldn't even waste SP skilling the damn thing to Proto I'd just use the basic Caldari Assault suit .. that is how pointless a reload skill bonus is
You're describing an entirely different issue.
The usefulness of an extremely fast reload in addition to the base reload skill vs. the actual cost to get to that point. Not only that but you're assuming that each opponent you go up against will have maxed reload as well.
If all you can say is "rail rifle has a reload skill and this skill is pointless" then I'm sorry but I'm done replying to you. Seems you've decided what you've decided, but sad to say repeating yourself over and over doesn't strengthen your argument.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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David Spd
Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2014.02.10 11:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Lol iron wolf saber lost all his credibility in this thread.
no idea how he became a cpm, no wonder this game is so broken.
Galente are active tankers. Complex repairer should be able to get to 10 armor rep a second or slightly over that after adding in skills. Caldari desperately need a regulator buff.
while medium suits are cruisers. with 1 slot no Caldari heavy will be able to rep like a drake which it should.
Caldari assault needs to be able to rep quickly.
Ideally we'd have mid slots also, more mods like shield/armor resistance mods and tracking mods to help turning speed on shotguns while ads.
suits need a 4 bonus system like eve, if you went tech 2 you'd get two bonuses for that ships role.
This is the thorax from eve:
Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
That's just the basic gallente cruiser, not even tech 2, I.e.
gallente medium, then you get two bonuses for going assault, or two bonuses for going logistics.
The op is fine for all races as the game currently is because ccps not giving enough bonuses and assault and logistics are basically acting as the tech two stand ins for medium standard frames being tech one with no role bonuses.
If iron wolf wants to give the assault suit combat bonuses and not tank bonuses, do this and give each assault suit a weapon bonus like eve would to encourage use of that weapon on the suit of the race it belongs to.
Yeah let's just copy everything over from EVE Online and expect it to translate perfectly well. I don't play EVE but as far as I know it's not a twitch-based skill shooter.
You can't just lob a bunch of offensive or defensive tank bonuses into passive skills and expect everybody to be pleased. As a first person shooter if you are better at the game than your opponent then it needs to show. Dust is supposed to be faster paced, and we're all ready seeing a low population thanks to the game requiring months of dedicated play to actually be competitive with skill investments.
Not only this but Dust 514 has insane competition when it comes to the genre. As an EVE Online player tell me what kinds of modern games do you have to play as alternatives? Any? I believe there's some kind of saying in New Eden along the lines of "Adapt or Die"? Something like that. Dust needs to do just that. EVE Online should be used as a rough concept to take inspiration from, not be the base fundamentals upon which this game is built.
Also the idea of making "tracking" mods on any first person shooter is ridiculous. This was one of the prime issues of Heavies being broken UP before Uprising: the restriction of turning speed. In a game where fast-paced twitch based skill is key, a heavy was a waste of a suit, since they couldn't turn fast enough to hit anything. The only "tracking" that needs to be in a console FPS is aim-assist, and people ***** up a storm about even that. "Mandatory" aim-assist ON A MOD would make people furious because it eliminates the need for SKILL in a SKILL BASED GENRE.
And semi-unrelated to this quote more directed at OP: I find Regulator bonus to be much more fitting to Caldari Assault, but I was never directly opposed to reload bonus either. Both bonuses support the same concept of hit & move gameplay I think supports the Assaults well.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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