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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
889
   |
Posted - 2014.02.06 18:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Link to thread
The video is a bit long [30min], but I'd really suggest watching it before commenting to understand some of the evidence and reasoning put forth by Judge.
Summery:
The problem: Rail tanks are OP; they can shoot from deep into the redline with impunity and can effectively threaten or nullify dropships. There are many factors that lead up to this: range (+600m), damage (rof and alpha; min +1.6k per shot), elevation (45-¬), tracking, defenses, and most importantly, the redline.
The range and the redline are the worst offenders. With the rail's ridiculous range, redline absuse becomes almost unavoidable. On most maps, rails can shoot nearly every point dropships are useful at their operational altitude (<80m). Elevation is also an issue, combined with range, redline rails can track dropships incredibly high into the sky, the only reliable place for dropships to find cover.
Solution: Reduce rail range to 450m and elevation to ~35-¦.
The range and elevation reduction will put most of the middle ground of most maps out of range of redline tanks but will still provide enough space for rail tanks to perform their role as long range heavy AV (tanks >150m away will still be able to target a dropship over 100m in the air, way above the dropship's operation range). It will keep rail tanks deadly at range to preoccupied dropships, but keep them balanced when dropships close this range. Each must use their advantages, rail's range and tank and dropship's agility and hight, to their own advantage.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 3 Gêå1; Other DS: 31 Gêå2; Tanks: 33 Gêå2
2/2
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
ACME Holding Conglomerate
643
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
i still have yet to get my own unfitted mlt derpship shot down by a rail tank this build.
edit: and the times i have fired upon a dropship with a rail tank. it normally ends in a miss usually. unless the dropship is still than i may get the hit. but most times ive attacked them they will normally survive. as u sometimes have to aim in front quite a ways ahead of them at range. |
Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
890
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
As for my personal view on the issue:
I don't think it's enough, but it's definitely a good suggestion.
The range is definitely the biggest issue with rail turrets. Currently, rails can virtually shoot from one side of the map to another from the safety of the redline. I don't want to nerf damage or their defenses as I believe they're right where they should be, the range is just too over the top for our current maps.
However, differing from Judge, I'd like to reduce rail range down to 350m effective range, after which a drop off range extending out to 450m where damage is reduced.
My biggest concern is that, while 450m is enough to keep tanks out of the deep redline, tanks can still hug the redline and retreat back easily. My suggestion will force rails to fight a little further from the redline and in the fight, but will still keep them far enough away as to either not abuse it or not be as effective abusing it. However, I think that if the redline mechanic were changed to where jumping in and out was more difficult or impossible, I'd be fine with the 450m range.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 3 Gêå1; Other DS: 31 Gêå2; Tanks: 33 Gêå2
2/2
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
ACME Holding Conglomerate
643
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 19:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
i think i can confirm that rails do have a rather long range. i managed to see a gunlogi sniping my glass cannon from his own redzone as i was working on enemy blaster tanks and turrets during that match in domination. although from that range(it was that one bridge map)i could only really see the icon of the enemy rail tank with my own rail turret. if i moved up a few meters he would fire upon me but when i moved back the same few meters the shooting stopped.
im not sure whether i was in my own redzone or not but i was pretty sure that i was close to it. although the match it self was pretty decent. i really dont want to see any nerfs to the rail turret though. because tank vs tank problems could arise from it. but i can also see why range like that can be a problem. |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
312
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Posted - 2014.02.06 22:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
The redzone needs fixing anyway. I'd like to see how much redline railgun sniping there is if there are no rewards in the redline. So no warpoints for activity in the redzone and no kills counted.
And for PC and FW just remove the redline entirely (apart from the shared boundary) while introducing a forfeit mechanic if a team is "redlined" for too long. |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
1408
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:As for my personal view on the issue:
I don't think it's enough, but it's definitely a good suggestion.
.....However, differing from Judge, I'd like to reduce rail range down to 350m effective range, after which a drop off range extending out to 450m where damage is reduced.
See I would like to see the range about 450 but drop elevation to 14 degrees. That way to hit high, which you can with 14 degrees, you need to be far away. Fits the rails role.
Everything Dropship youtube channel
my Community Spotlight
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
893
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:As for my personal view on the issue:
I don't think it's enough, but it's definitely a good suggestion.
.....However, differing from Judge, I'd like to reduce rail range down to 350m effective range, after which a drop off range extending out to 450m where damage is reduced. See I would like to see the range about 450 but drop elevation to 14 degrees. That way to hit high, which you can with 14 degrees, you need to be far away. Fits the rails role.
No, that is far to much. In order to hit a dropship at 100m above the ground you'd need to be more than 400m away, not to mention how that would inevitably affect tank combat. Some of our maps just aren't big enough for a tank to get that far back (take Ashland for example it's practically the whole map). With higher pitch (25-35 degrees), tanks will be able to engage unsuspecting dropships at a fair range (200-300m) but will still be vulnerable to overhead attacks (more so than they are now).
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 3 Gêå1; Other DS: 31 Gêå2; Tanks: 33 Gêå2
2/2
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
1409
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maybe 20 degrees then. That's roughly 100 meters up for 300 meters back. This fits easily into most maps. Remeber 300 meters is often more then half way across the map. However, you also have to remember that there are hills and bumps that completely change the elevation. Give tanks a low 14 degree elevation and the use of hills remains balanced. With 35 degrees and hills we are back where we are now.
Everything Dropship youtube channel
my Community Spotlight
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akira 1999
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
24
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Posted - 2014.02.14 02:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
hard to get a good balance for the issue.
- rail tanks with 600+ meter range is not really balanced in small maps
- a ADS flying around killing people on the ground with no real deterrent ( lets be honest swarms now are useless with such short range and low damage)
- and forge guns are good for dropships if not noticed or firing from cover, but being in the open or against infantry the forge gets massacred
- rail tanks do the anti vehicle and anti installation job well, some say too well
and there is no quick fix for any of it.
though reduced range and elevation will help, but then we need to buff the AV to help prevent ADS spam from happening. |
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