DUST Search - armor tankers aren't that good.

THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:

As someones already said before, armor plates are broken compared to shield extenders.
armor is 4x the HP of its shield counterpart at MLT & STD, with EXTREMELY low pg & cpu cost(1pg, 10cpu), 3x HP at ADV with similar yet still superior fitting,and 2x as effective at PRO with similar yet still superior fitting.

Its that simple, you get 400 HP from 5 extenders or 370 or so with 4 on calassault, you get 770 from 5 plates.

with level 5 on both its 155 armor per plate, 75 shield per extender.

of course all tiers are great with plates while protos only useful with extenders, but this COULD be remedied by PG/CPU mods IF pure shield tanking had higher EHP, letting it be viable. Regulators are also completely useless, while reppers are perfectly balanced.

As a result of these stats, all decent armor tankers run 1 complex repper with all other slots plates, or logis use no reppers and all plates, then use a proto weapon, then fit as many complex damage mods as possible with any leftover fitting going to scanners, low level nanohives, or grenades.

Shield suits have to mimic these fits to stand a chance, while callogis sacrifice a low for a CPU mod, and callassaults sacrifice a low for a repper, or have no reps at all.
Minassaults run no reps all extenders 2 plates, Min logis stack 4 plates with 3 damage mods 1 ext or 4 extenders.
Minmatar scouts are just screwed.


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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 371	Posted - 2014.02.01 21:54:00 - [1] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Finally someone who understands. Healing equipment is unreliable, you just DON'T stack plates on armor suits, you're just crying to lose your suit. Half of the slots are usually dedicated to armor repairers. Would also like to note that shield recharge is getting a massive buff in 1.8 on shield suits. Caldari heavy: 30hp/s Caldari assault: 40hp/s Caldari scout: 50hp/s what about minmitar? or are they getting ****** over again... Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 372	Posted - 2014.02.01 22:01:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: In all honesty, the only reason I don't shield tank is because of my lack of sp to support it because of how necessary complex extenders are. This is another point, actually. The scaling on shield extenders is horrendous, and the lower tier ones really should have a bit more health. they also need lower pg requirements so that the people who use them can fit biotics in the lows. For armor tankers, you only need adv plates which have very low costs, a low penalty, and a lower sp requirement. For shields to be effective you need complex extenders, which have a huge cpu and pg cost. For armor tankers, stacking adv plates allows for the use of cpu intensive damage mods, but for shield tankers, the high pg cost doesn't allow for the use of biotics in the lows. That is the real imbalance in my opinion. If the costs were reduced and the shield tankers (caldari and minmitar) receive better incentives to stack shields, i.e. more recharge and better recharge delay, the disparity between shields and armor will be fixed. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 372	Posted - 2014.02.01 22:02:00 - [3] - Quote i made a thread about getting up some number to fix shields and armor disparity, which includes a unique set of ideas for buffs and nerds, ill put it in here. MODULES The main modules that need their effectiveness reduced in comparison to other modules are MLT, STD, and ADV armor plates (non-variant), and damage mods. CCP plans on nerfing damage mods, so i will not comment on that these are some possible buffs to reduce armor and shield disparity- STD: (75 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (33 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (55 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (70 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU) if anything, the ludicrous costs of shield extenders need to be lowered especially in the pg departments for 3 reasons- 1. At proto level, (their only useful level), they only cost 1 pg less than proto plates, but 24 more cpu 2. Shield tankers (minmitar/caldari) have very low pg, but high cpu 3. Biotic modules which are supposed to be coupled with shields to create a hit and run style of suit cost the most pg of any module in the game, making them unfittable if the user also wants to stack shields In addition, Caldari and minmitar suits need an innate buff to shield recharge delay (not depleted) and recharge rate of about 15-25% ARMOR ALSO NEEDS A BUFF The penalties for movement speed for all plates are backwards in my opinion, and is part of the reason no one uses anything past ADV plates. A solution for this would be to make the penalty constant across all tiers, possibly a 3-4% penalty depending on common opinion. Also, ferroscales and reactive plates are a joke, and i dont even use armor. I think that ferroscales need a slight buff hp wise (5% ish), but should also have very low fitting costs. Reactive plates should have a lower penalty than other plates (1-2%), and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. Also, armor repairers should be moved to high slots. I currently think it is unfair to armor tankers that shield tankers are able to use both high and low slots to tank their suit, while armor tankers must only use low slots. -proposed buff for armor repairers- move to a high slot, or instead just add a high module that bonuses armor regen -Armor repair, however, should not work while taking fire, in other words, add a 1 sec delay after taking fire to armor repair -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 372	Posted - 2014.02.01 22:15:00 - [4] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Having to pick between tank and gank makes sense in eve. You pick a high dps glass canon shield tank or a low dps high ehp armor tank. You either kill fast or survive longer. Yet in Dust you can pick high dps and high ehp armor suits. Shields are out performed in evey way by armor in dust. Armor gets superior dps, superior ehp, armorhives, armor reps, armor repair with a needle stick. Armor tankers can also camp while standing in a triage hive getting immediate repairs. Shields get crap ehp, lackluster dps, and a bs shield regen that takes 5 seconds of hiding to even activate. With TTK the way it is having high armor ehp and more dps is much better than having less shield ehp that regens faster on its own. Anyone that thinks armor is not better than shields on dropsuits is a liar or an idiot. i currently like how it works, shields get huge mobility and e-war, armor gets huge EHP and damage. However, currently, shields are underperforming even in their current niche, which is a problem Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 374	Posted - 2014.02.02 00:03:00 - [5] - Quote Ill post it againGÇªthis will solve all problems with module imbalance, please comment your opinions MODULES The main modules that need their effectiveness reduced in comparison to other modules are MLT, STD, and ADV armor plates (non-variant), and damage mods. CCP plans on nerfing damage mods, so i will not comment on that these are some possible buffs to reduce armor and shield disparity- STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (33 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (55 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (70 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU) if anything, the ludicrous costs of shield extenders need to be lowered especially in the pg departments for 3 reasons- 1. At proto level, (their only useful level), they only cost 1 pg less than proto plates, but 24 more cpu 2. Shield tankers (minmitar/caldari) have very low pg, but high cpu 3. Biotic modules which are supposed to be coupled with shields to create a hit and run style of suit cost the most pg of any module in the game, making them unfittable if the user also wants to stack shields. Armor suits are able to easily fit damage mods in the highs and armor in the lows which is good, but shields should be able to fit shields in the highs and biotics in the lows with ease In addition, Caldari and minmitar suits need an innate buff to shield recharge delay (not depleted) and recharge rate of about 15-25% ARMOR ALSO NEEDS A BUFF The penalties for movement speed for all plates are backwards in my opinion, and is part of the reason no one uses anything past ADV plates. A solution for this would be to make the penalty constant across all tiers, possibly a 3-4% penalty depending on common opinion. Also, ferroscales and reactive plates are a joke, and i dont even use armor. I think that ferroscales need a slight buff hp wise (5% ish), but should also have very low fitting costs. Reactive plates should have a lower penalty than other plates (1-2%), and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. Also, armor repairers should be moved to high slots. I currently think it is unfair to armor tankers that shield tankers are able to use both high and low slots to tank their suit, while armor tankers must only use low slots. -proposed buff for armor repairers- move to a high slot, or instead just add a high module that bonuses armor regen -Armor repair, however, should not work while taking fire, in other words, add a 1 sec delay after taking fire to armor repair -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 374	Posted - 2014.02.02 00:05:00 - [6] - Quote Ronan Elsword wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost First of all........ARE YOU CRAZY? 100 HP armor for advanced would be OP for armor tankers. But I do agree with the part about the last part. Right now it's like 115hp at ADV No 100 would not be OP because it also has a constant penalty to movement speed throughout all tiers (3-4%) which would remove the current OPness of armor tanking. currently, nobody runs proto plates because of the movement penalty being too much to be made up for by the minimal increase over ADV plates Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 374	Posted - 2014.02.02 00:10:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Ronan Elsword wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost First of all........ARE YOU CRAZY? 100 HP armor for advanced would be OP for armor tankers. But I do agree with the part about the last part. Right now it's like 115hp at ADV No 100 would not be OP because it also has a constant penalty to movement speed throughout all tiers (3-4%) which would remove the current OPness of armor tanking. currently, nobody runs proto plates because of the movement penalty being too much to be made up for by the minimal increase over ADV plates. Armor should have on the order of 1.5-1.75 times as much hp as shield, due to their stand and deliver nature No. Nobody runs proto plates because of the fitting requirements. That too. But do you agree with me? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 374	Posted - 2014.02.02 01:28:00 - [8] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Shield regen vs. Armor repair is not the real problem. They are both moot points if you are killed. The problem is an armor suit has more ehp and can stack damage mods. This gives them a huge advantage against shield suits as the armor suit can kill faster and live longer. Armor suits have many ways to repair after an engadement, and with more damage and health, they have the upper hand. Shield regen is only a factor five seconds after an engagement. And with less ehp and less damage a shield suit is at a disadvantage versus an armor suit and often doesn't survive to regen. thats why shields need lower pg costs for biotics in the lows Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 374	Posted - 2014.02.02 01:44:00 - [9] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: As someones already said before, armor plates are broken compared to shield extenders. armor is 4x the HP of its shield counterpart at MLT & STD, with EXTREMELY low pg & cpu cost(1pg, 10cpu), 3x HP at ADV with similar yet still superior fitting,and 2x as effective at PRO with similar yet still superior fitting. Its that simple, you get 400 HP from 5 extenders or 370 or so with 4 on calassault, you get 770 from 5 plates. with level 5 on both its 155 armor per plate, 75 shield per extender. of course all tiers are great with plates while protos only useful with extenders, but this COULD be remedied by PG/CPU mods IF pure shield tanking had higher EHP, letting it be viable. Regulators are also completely useless, while reppers are perfectly balanced. As a result of these stats, all decent armor tankers run 1 complex repper with all other slots plates, or logis use no reppers and all plates, then use a proto weapon, then fit as many complex damage mods as possible with any leftover fitting going to scanners, low level nanohives, or grenades. Shield suits have to mimic these fits to stand a chance, while callogis sacrifice a low for a CPU mod, and callassaults sacrifice a low for a repper, or have no reps at all. Minassaults run no reps all extenders 2 plates, Min logis stack 4 plates with 3 damage mods 1 ext or 4 extenders. Minmatar scouts are just screwed. couldn't have said it better. To make shields viable, they need to have less cpu/pg costs, and armor needs to be more useful at proto than at ADV, and mid level extenders need to be useful to some extent Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Help Shields
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:08:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Would just like to clarify. My Gallente has 530 ARMOR My Caldari has 500 SHIELDS This is not total HP. then use a better fitting for your gallente suit. Ive seen plenty with over 900 armor before Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:10:00 - [11] - Quote MODULES The main modules that need their effectiveness reduced in comparison to other modules are MLT, STD, and ADV armor plates (non-variant), and damage mods. CCP plans on nerfing damage mods, so i will not comment on that these are some possible buffs to reduce armor and shield disparity- STD: (75 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (33 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (55 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (70 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU) if anything, the ludicrous costs of shield extenders need to be lowered especially in the pg departments for 3 reasons- 1. At proto level, (their only useful level), they only cost 1 pg less than proto plates, but 24 more cpu 2. Shield tankers (minmitar/caldari) have very low pg, but high cpu 3. Biotic modules which are supposed to be coupled with shields to create a hit and run style of suit cost the most pg of any module in the game, making them unfittable if the user also wants to stack shields In addition, Caldari and minmitar suits need an innate buff to shield recharge delay (not depleted) and recharge rate of about 15-25% ARMOR ALSO NEEDS A BUFF The penalties for movement speed for all plates are backwards in my opinion, and is part of the reason no one uses anything past ADV plates. A solution for this would be to make the penalty constant across all tiers, possibly a 3-4% penalty depending on common opinion. Also, ferroscales and reactive plates are a joke, and i dont even use armor. I think that ferroscales need a slight buff hp wise (5% ish), but should also have very low fitting costs. Reactive plates should have a lower penalty than other plates (1-2%), and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. Also, armor repairers should be moved to high slots. I currently think it is unfair to armor tankers that shield tankers are able to use both high and low slots to tank their suit, while armor tankers must only use low slots. -proposed buff for armor repairers- move to a high slot, or instead just add a high module that bonuses armor regen -Armor repair, however, should not work while taking fire, in other words, add a 1 sec delay after taking fire to armor repair -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost here you go. This would theoretically solve a lot of disparity between the viability of utilizing either shield or armor Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:14:00 - [12] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Would just like to clarify. My Gallente has 530 ARMOR My Caldari has 500 SHIELDS This is not total HP. then use a better fitting for your gallente suit. Ive seen plenty with over 900 armor before gal assault cant get 900 armor let alone 800. I assumed logi. 210x1.25+4x 135x1.1=856.5, unless I'm doing my math wrong. This is for a gallente assault max armor stacking. Also allows for damage mods in the highs. I don't want to make a direct comparison to armor and shield, but if you take all factors considered, armor simply is better to use, for many small reasons, that add up to create a larger disparity. Read my previous post, and tell me what you think. I put a lot of time into it, so please be constructive. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:18:00 - [13] - Quote shields and armor offer 2 entirely different play styles, the one problem is that for fitting, armor allows for damage mods to be easily fitted in the highs and other good modules to be fitted because ADV is simply more effective than proto, and has less fitting cost. Biotics, which are supposed to be coupled with shields, cannot be due to the only useful extenders being proto extenders, which have a very high cpu/pg cost, and this coupled with the pg costs of biotics makes them difficult to fit, making it necessary to fit inferior equipment in the other slots. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:25:00 - [14] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: MODULES The main modules that need their effectiveness reduced in comparison to other modules are MLT, STD, and ADV armor plates (non-variant), and damage mods. CCP plans on nerfing damage mods, so i will not comment on that these are some possible buffs to reduce armor and shield disparity- STD: (75 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (33 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (55 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (70 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU) if anything, the ludicrous costs of shield extenders need to be lowered especially in the pg departments for 3 reasons- 1. At proto level, (their only useful level), they only cost 1 pg less than proto plates, but 24 more cpu 2. Shield tankers (minmitar/caldari) have very low pg, but high cpu 3. Biotic modules which are supposed to be coupled with shields to create a hit and run style of suit cost the most pg of any module in the game. base complex armor reps should be 6 or 7 hp/s with a repair boost in the high That would result in armor plates being better at repairing than shields. I think you keep reppers where they are and add a rep module in the highs (similar to shields-extenders and rechargers in highs, regulator in lows), and then armor is equal in tanking capabilities to shield from a module accessibility count Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:28:00 - [15] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Use amarr logi, all complex reppers in lows, be an active armour tanker The idea is there would be a 1 second delay after taking fire so that armor couldn't repair faster than people could deal damage, but in essence the idea of using reppers in the lows and boosters in the highs would be perfect for the gallente assault, as they already have high base HP Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 382	Posted - 2014.02.02 15:32:00 - [16] - Quote NK Scout wrote: i said 6 or 7 hp/s, armor reps (gal assault) TOO slow it would help 1 rep build a little, make the rep skill bonus better, and made armor viable alone and make shields get a buff ill give you 6. I just did the math and 6 seems to be a good number for proto, if the boosters are 25% in the highs, but this in now way helps shields, unless you are saying that you agree with my big post, in which case i say thank you sir for seeing the light Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 383	Posted - 2014.02.02 17:20:00 - [17] - Quote Ill post it again, just for easy reading. This solves everything MODULES The main modules that need their effectiveness reduced in comparison to other modules are MLT, STD, and ADV armor plates (non-variant), and damage mods. CCP plans on nerfing damage mods, so i will not comment on that these are some possible buffs to reduce armor and shield disparity- STD: (75 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (33 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (100 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (55 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (70 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU) if anything, the ludicrous costs of shield extenders need to be lowered especially in the pg departments for 3 reasons- 1. At proto level, (their only useful level), they only cost 1 pg less than proto plates, but 24 more cpu 2. Shield tankers (minmitar/caldari) have very low pg, but high cpu 3. Biotic modules which are supposed to be coupled with shields to create a hit and run style of suit cost the most pg of any module in the game, making them unfittable if the user also wants to stack shields In addition, Caldari and minmitar suits need an innate buff to shield recharge delay (not depleted) and recharge rate of about 15-25% ARMOR ALSO NEEDS A BUFF The penalties for movement speed for all plates are backwards in my opinion, and is part of the reason no one uses anything past ADV plates. A solution for this would be to make the penalty constant across all tiers, possibly a 3-4% penalty depending on common opinion. Also, ferroscales and reactive plates are a joke, and i dont even use armor. I think that ferroscales need a slight buff hp wise (5% ish), but should also have very low fitting costs. Reactive plates should have a lower penalty than other plates (1-2%), and have 1/2/3 hp/s respectively for each tier. Also, they are in need of a lower fitting cost by a lot like ferroscales. Also, armor repairers should be moved to high slots. I currently think it is unfair to armor tankers that shield tankers are able to use both high and low slots to tank their suit, while armor tankers must only use low slots. -proposed buff for armor repairers- move to a high slot, or instead just add a high module that bonuses armor regen -Armor repair, however, should not work while taking fire, in other words, add a 1 sec delay after taking fire to armor repair -OTHER MODULES- kincats should affect strafing speed, codebreakers need a lower cpu/pg cost Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 383	Posted - 2014.02.02 17:53:00 - [18] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: NK Scout wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are there so many scrubs directly comparing armor to shields. Ok I'll do the same since shields are doing it for armor . "It's unfair that Shields get massive passive regain and mobility" - excerpt from my short Novel, The plight of Armor Tankers. You can't run both suits the same way so I'm not seeing an issue. Just seeing shield tankers not getting their way after being spoiled for 1+ year still that 22 hp can still let you survive one more round. Example, your suit by itself can take x AR bullets it can almost take x +1 but it's just a few hp underneath it. That 22 hp plate now lets you take that extra bullet. inb4 shield tankers argue that point with armor tactics in mind. The only issue I'm seeing here is damage mods, and from the looks of all the current Caldari weapons in the games, you guys have your 2 Complex Damage mods built into the gun. i got in a shield suit in sep october for armor guess which one's better what suit then. If you say assault I know youre a joke They are 2 different play styles, so one is not necessarily better than the other, it is just that the play style involved with armor has a much larger niche than the play style involved with shields, and can fill shields niche as well with ease, while the inverse is not true Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 383	Posted - 2014.02.02 21:24:00 - [19] - Quote he just wants to make the point that armor and shield tanking is different, even if shield tanking is underperforming Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!