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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
512
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Posted - 2014.01.31 22:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Chesyre Armundsen wrote:Why does the HAV allow the driver to operate and fire the main cannon at the same time? Perhaps an addition to satisfy both HAV operators and those who feel HAV operation should be a team effort would be to have a driver seat like the LAV. A single operator would be completely protected as they currently are, but would have to switch seats to a turret to fire a weapon. Multiple operators would mean a dedicated driver and manned turrets, while solo drivers would have to stop moving and switch controls to attack a target. Retreat would then also mean switching back. I believe this may offer a good dynamic.
As a tank driver (and I assure you a reasonable one) this is unacceptable. Could you even imagine tanks that had to stop, to use their turret. Think of how comical tank battles would be, not to mention LAME.
But I do think we can agree that a team should be required tank side same as it is infantry side. I think the biggest problem, is that AV really can't do anything against tanks. But I don't think this would be such a problem if tanks weren't murdering infantry day in and day out.
You posted up in my Tanks - A real balance thread, I had some good idea's throughout that post.
Now though I would like to direct you to my more specific thread on turrets. Tanks - Balancing turrets
It's a much shorter read btw. To kinda sum it up, I'm trying to accomplish the same goal as you, but still maintain control of my main turret. No tanker will ever agree with letting a blueberry run our main turret. Not to mention, why invest heavily for something you will only ever get to use with the help of somebody else.
Tanks are for killing tanks, or at least I think they should be AV focused, not infantry focused. Tankers should SUPPORT infantry, or in other words "SUPPLEMENT" not outright own them. Small turrets are there for AI purposes.
You aren't restricted on your suits like this, there is no reason a tank should be as well. But I agree, if it takes a team to kill a tank, it should take a tank team to kill infantry.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
515
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Posted - 2014.02.01 00:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Tebu Gan wrote: Tanks are for killing tanks, or at least I think they should be AV focused, not infantry focused. Tankers should SUPPORT infantry, or in other words "SUPPLEMENT" not outright own them. Small turrets are there for AI purposes.
You aren't restricted on your suits like this, there is no reason a tank should be as well. But I agree, if it takes a team to kill a tank, it should take a tank team to kill infantry.
If tanks are AV focused - What the hell are they for? That literally means that they are pointless outside of their own microcosmos. You wouldn't even need to call in another tank when the enemy gets one, because an enemy with a tank just means that one of their squad members suddenly stopped contributing meaningfully. That's why large AI turrets need to exist. With infantry, I can be either AI or AV. As a commando even both. Let's disregard the imbalances that exist for the current AV situation.
Read the thread, I was hoping that would get your attention and coax you into looking the thread over.
I should say, tanks need roles. I suggest focusing heavily either one way or the other.
Your turret determines your role, either AV or AI, very much like you say with infantry. So let's take an AV turret for example, poor damage to infantry, but massive damage to vehicles.
On the other side, you have your AI turret, that is very poor against vehicles, but alright against infantry. I'm not for a tank being able to easily kill infantry. This tank, put itself at a severe disadvantage against another tank. But with the way hardeners work, infantry would still struggle with it.
But I've also suggest apply this thought when you think of balancing.
If you want to gain, you need to lose.
So with a resistance module, rather than gaining nothing but a bonus of 60%, what if a tank lost something in the process. Say a 15% reduction to speed, or a 15% reduction to overall damage. Maybe even make the turret itself stronger, but make it reduce the effectiveness of hardeners. In this way, tanks can play tanks, but if a tank wants to play with infantry, it should have something that puts it closer to the infantry's level.
And what are tanks for, why to fight other tanks of course. I RARELY ever focus on infantry. Since this new build, my goal has been to kill tanks. I suggest that light turrets do the job of AI the best, so that a tank requires a team of people to take out infantry. But think about this, currently, a tank has to sacrafice Defense, in order to equip light turrets. So a tank that wanted the best AI would have to sacrifice D, putting him more on level with the infantry.
And I think pg/cpu is a means of restriction, to allow balance, but not outright create it.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
515
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Posted - 2014.02.01 00:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I don't think you currently understand the advantage infantry have by lone-operated HAVs.
Currently, to see where you are driving, an HAV must have their turret pointed in the general direction. This allows people to sneak up behind HAVs and place REs, or AV nade them. Give HAV dual operation and you have a constantly mobile heavy weapon platform where turret tracking speed (which is relatively slow) does not hinder the ability to retreat.
I've had many HAV's screw themselves over because they panic and they reverse without swiveling the turret before hand and thus run themselves up a rock and they lose the vehicle. Allowing the HAV turret operator to be given only a single focus would be bad because then we'd have HAV operators controlling their vehicles much more easily. The HAV driver only has to worry about movement and HAV health while the HAV turret operator only has to focus on targets. Currently, the HAV operator has to focus on the HAV health, the targets, and where they are going. It would be better to leave as is so we don't lessen the load of responsibilities handed to a HAV.
No I am not a tanker I do the shady sands shuffle.
Wow, this is a VERY good point. Get's the old gears a turnin.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
518
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Posted - 2014.02.01 15:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:And what are tanks for, why to fight other tanks of course. I RARELY ever focus on infantry. Since this new build, my goal has been to kill tanks. I suggest that light turrets do the job of AI the best, so that a tank requires a team of people to take out infantry. But think about this, currently, a tank has to sacrifice Defense, in order to equip light turrets. So a tank that wanted the best AI would have to sacrifice D, putting him more on level with the infantry.
You are currently able to hunt tanks because tanks are good at killing infantry. Where do you think all those people that are risking their HAVs are coming from? Those are not NPCs. They do not spawn from thin air. They exist because they feel a reason to exist and risk their ISK. Tanks are already restricted in how they contribute. Their only role is killing/area denial. Spawning and scanning is better done with dropships and LAVs. They currently appear in massive numbers because they are basically invulnerable and can easily slaughter infantry, not because they contribute to the match in any other way. I've seen matches lost because the team was tank driving instead of capturing objectives. Now you are saying that they also lose that role and instead require a two man support team in order to kill infantry, which is the real support role due to the fact that infantry is the basis of the game. It also creates the unique situation that any useful tanks will be good at both killing infantry and tanks alike, because your AI turrets have to be manned in order to contribute to the team. And good luck winning a match where six blueberries are driving two tanks. Big turrets = AV means that tanks are only called in when there's already another tank on the field. But why the hell would that happen, especially with the turrets that are placed everywhere? In this vision, there wouldn't be tankers killing off turrets at the beginning of the match, which would actually weaken tanks in general and make their AV focus even more pointless. Seeing a tank would boil down to one of three situations - Blueberries that want to try them out and don't realize that they suck at AI, call in and instant recall of a railgun tank against a dropship or another HAV and a dedicated three-man crew that wants to farm infantry kills. You will not have sole tank operators anymore. Allowing big turrets to have different roles allows tanks to be real support plattforms with specified niches. One guy with expensive equipment that has dedicated counters. Balance the game around infantry, not around tank battles that don't have any reason to exist without infantry interaction. And, dude, make up your mind. Your first half of the post is about customization of tanks for different roles. Your second half is about having all big turrets as AV. I can agree with one but not the other.
No, it's actually about having roles, split between an AV large turret and an AI large turret. And I don't think pub matches are a good place to make that determination that tanks can only exist because they kill infantry. Do you want tanks to easily murder infantry??? You think that tanks only have a place on the field because they can easily murder infantry? I choose to drive tanks, like others, and we determine our own place on the field. We don't exist BECAUSE of infantry, we exist because tanks are a part of the game.
Let's take the current rail gun for example. IT IS an AV weapon hands down. But on open map PCs where the points are open and exposed, a rail tank can hold that objective from a distance. Outside of that tiny niche, a rail tank struggles to kill infantry, but it's not impossible. Takes a bit of skill and luck. And just the other day, my buddy tanker blocked entry to an objective using his bulk so we could hack it. I then squashed the dude he blocked with my tank against his tank.
But anyways, you WOULD have sole operators in HAVs same as you have sole infantry and HAV's now. Sorry man but not everyone digs the team thing 24/7 (some of us are introverted). In all honesty, I don't think you fully grasp what it means to drive a tank. You make it seem as if no one would drive tanks if we moved more to an AV focus, but you fail to realize that many out there are LOOKING for tank vs tank battles. Winning or losing a PUB is pointless at this point. What we want are good battles within our own niche.
And dude, if you had a good tanker squad in a tank, they are only there to provide protected support. If they need to get out and deal with AV on foot or other infantry, they do it. You seem to think that once a blueberries in a tank, he's in there for good.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
518
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Posted - 2014.02.01 17:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Chesyre Armundsen wrote:Why does the HAV allow the driver to operate and fire the main cannon at the same time? Perhaps an addition to satisfy both HAV operators and those who feel HAV operation should be a team effort would be to have a driver seat like the LAV. A single operator would be completely protected as they currently are, but would have to switch seats to a turret to fire a weapon. Multiple operators would mean a dedicated driver and manned turrets, while solo drivers would have to stop moving and switch controls to attack a target. Retreat would then also mean switching back. I believe this may offer a good dynamic. I would vote for the opposite approach: Allow solo dropship pilots to use their guns in some way. LAVs can already run people over when run solo and are fast enough to evade attacks. HAV solo turret operation is completely okay as long as it's fixed on a single target type. Make the turret good at either infantry OR tank killing. And then force them to use additional gunners to attack the other target type. This means that a tank as omnipotent as the current one would need three operators, but doesn't make them useless when run solo.
Dude, THIS is my idea.
I know I said AV focused, I know, my mistake. It seems to me that we are both on the exact same page. I suggested in my post on tank turrets of splitting the roles of say a blaster tank into AV or AI depending on the turret type. And when used, an AI is good at killing infantry, but it shouldn't be good against another tank, leaving them vulnerable, and giving purpose to an AV role tank.
At the same time, an AI tank needs to have some sort of disadvantage against infantry AV, as they are immune to small arms fire, and for an infantry to run AV they put themselves at a disadvantage to other infantry.
Way I see it, AV shouldn't have much of a chance against an AV dedicated tank, as damage is meant to supplement another tank. But in the same way, tanks should require infantry support to kill other tankers.
And if an AI large turret wants to supplement his AV or AI capabilities, he runs gunners. Same with an AV that wants some AI abilities while retaining AV capabilities.
This is clearly a misunderstanding, as I mistook you for the OP that wanted to split the roles of a tank to require 2 operators min. Looking back at your post I see that we are on the same page. What I mean with tanks being more AV focused, is that an infantry is at a rather large disadvantage when it comes to tackling a tank, where as a tank is immune to anything but AV. I would rather tanks not slaughter infantry so easily with an AI turret.
Currently, a blaster is FAR too strong against your normal infantry, and even AV infantry crumbles to a good blaster tanker. My point being, an AI turret shouldn't kill like they were on foot, because they have limited vulnerability as opposed to the infantry.
Sorry for the stress fella, I think we are arguing when we should be discussing how to go about different turret types, and what kind of drawbacks should be associated with said turrets. Same with modules, as well as adding positive attribuites, I would like to have some negatives to using them as well.
Nuff Said
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