you ass

lol, yeah, It takes forever with the spam prevention bullshit. Post wait 30 seconds, post wait 30 seconds lol.

You are missing the point.

There was a post on the overall goal CCP was trying to achieve with tanks. I can't seem to find it, was back in 1.5 or so. If anyone can find it, please link.

They stated their views of how the tanks should work. The gallente were to be the stand and deliver, an in your face tank, that focused more on taking damage. Able to engage the enemy for an extended time.

Caldari are to be the Hit and Run type, get in fast, do damage, and get back out. Engagements are to be limited.

That was CCP's official statement on the matter, once they started working on fixing tanks.

As far as rails go, agreed, they can't be the best at everything. Some would disagree, but if we want balance this kind of thinking needs to stop. Want to do high alpha, then you have to give something up.

A lot of people like to compare a rail tank to a sniper. While there are similarities, the infantry sniper is at a disadvantage when not at range. That's the point people miss, said sniper doesn't generally kill in CQC or mid range combat. They MUST use the range, because they are far to vulnerable when close. See, that is the trade off, You may gain range and high alpha, but you lose out in defenses(trade off for damage) and range is limited by the scope(long range, not effective in mid or cqc).

A rail tank is nothing like that. They can kill at range, maintain a damage mod for dps, effective in CQC and mid range combat, can still fit for heavy tanking, immune to anything but other tanks and AV. Where are the downsides to using a rail??

Rails are the go to weapon for busting tanks, because they excel in all areas, and have virtually no weakness. Broken.

Milita tanks are another story, and I'm getting to them in my OP.

Taka I can't begin to describe to you how uneducated your responses are. I know your stance, I've seen a lot of posts you have made, and they are ALWAYS the same. Use some damn sense man. For example.

I ask, why is speed fine? You respond because it has an engine. REALLY! I did not know that, so all engines make things go fast. I feel SOOO enlightened. I can forget about generators, or tug boat engines, or any other engine that is meant for anything other than propulsion. Jesus, really???

Hardeners, your response : They are fine, i cant fit boosters/extenders/speed mods/dmg mods, its means i cant speed away as fast, it means if 2 FG work together to **** me i cant boost back shield etc etc etc. DO YOU TANK. Hardeners are the ONLY thing you want to use on your tank, with a damage mod OR a booster. Extenders are broken and useless in comparison to hardeners. The reason hardeners are used over the other types, because they are currently part of what makes tanks OP.

I asked about rails and you respond: Its long range high dmg like a sniper and generally useless in cqc and short range. Again I ask, do you even tank. Any good tanker knows, that rails work well at long range AND cqc to mid range. Add in a gunnlogi to the mix, and you can speed up turret tracking, turning your tank in the same direction you turn your turret. It works so well with a gunnlogi, because they are AGILE.

About missile turrets, you respond, all turrets are situational. Yeah, good job you are right. None though are as situational as missile turrets. Lol.

Tanks are not on equal ground in any situation, thus it's flawed before you can begin, you say. I ask AGAIN do you tank? I can't begin to count the number of times I have squared off on equal ground. You can't pretend that it doesn't happen. Those situations I described, those events actually happened. I don't make **** up fella, I speak from experience.

My math, Proto hardeners have a cooldown of 24 seconds. The skills at max gives you 25% to cooldown and uptime.

So .25 * 24seconds = 6 + 24 = 30 seconds

Downtime is 60 seconds, so 60 * .25 = 15, 60 - 15 = 45 seconds

So I admit, I no doubt made a false statement.

Total up time is 30 seconds per one mod and 45 seconds down
Assuming we use them one at a time, there is an overlap. Individually no, grouped yes.

So 15 seconds into the second mod, assuming you are using 2 hardeners, you can activate the the first mod again. So, with max skills, you can maintain at least one hardener most all of the time. The point though, is that hardeners last WAY TOO LONG. That's a full minute of uptime with 2 hardeners cycled, and before the second wears off, the first is cooldown, but after this inital cycle there will be a few seconds of down time. But not until after a full minute and a half though cycling hardeners.

The point with 3 hardeners, is to maintain 2 when needed, at least one all the time. With skills this would be much easier, but I would think of a less SP invested tanker going this route, rather than one with the skills.

I think, hardeners are not the BIGGEST problem. Right now you are absolutely right, selection is limited, and there is no variance in the fits.

That is because, CCP isn't finished with tanks. They stripped that variety with intent to add things back in later. It's not that a gunnlogi shouldn't use triple hardeners, it's the fact you can run them non stop.

I'm wondering, how could you go about allowing a ultra high resistance, for an extended time. What negatives are associated with that.

Maybe they could add in a penalty for stacking hardeners, that every mod after the first increases your cooldown time on all modules. So stacking 3 hardeners means you won't be cycling them nonstop.

Whata ya think of that?

Well, if you think about it, with 2 hardeners on at the same time, they only have 30 seconds before they go into CD(gunnlogi). With a stacking penalty that increases CD time, they trade the extra defense for extra downtime.

I can tell you for a fact, a proto railgun with a single damage mod, will very much hurt a double hardener setup. Without the hardener, I can 2 shot a gunnlogi, with 2 activated, it takes roughly 4 -7 shots to drop. It is NOT TOO much resistance.

I myself run this setup

Gunnlogi
2x Hardeners
1x Damage mod or Speed boost
1x Armor hardener or armor repair

Proto rails


Do you want to just 2 shot tanks with a rail? I want long, engaging combat. Not a system where everything dies in just a few seconds. I've had forge gunners, severely **** me up with a single hardener active. I know for a fact, from my experience, that a double hardener setup is NOT immune to a proto rail.

And did you read my post in its entirety? There are many things that can be done to hardeners, that suggestion was just my favorite.

My theme is balance, in order to gain in one area, you must lose in another

So to have 60% resistance we need to lose something in the process. Sure you can have that resistance, but let's say you lose overall damage in the process. So the mod would look something like this.

60% resistance at the cost of 15% overall damage. Want defense, then you trade offensive capabilities.

Ahh, a maddie, well those don't need to be double hardened either I think.

My suggestion with damage mods, is that they reduce your resistances in addition to giving you extra damage. In this way, even if they chose the double hardener route, using a damage mod helps negate the benefit of using 2.

Read that post I linked and check out my ideas for the turrets. Then scroll down and check out harpyj's suggestion about doing the same thing, just with ammo.

Basically, if a rail guns wants range, they lose out on damage.

If a rail gun wants damage, they lose out on range.

Ahh, a maddie, well those don't need to be double hardened either I think.

My suggestion with damage mods, is that they reduce your resistances in addition to giving you extra damage. In this way, even if they chose the double hardener route, using a damage mod helps negate the benefit of using 2.

Read that post I linked and check out my ideas for the turrets. Then scroll down and check out harpyj's suggestion about doing the same thing, just with ammo.

Basically, if a rail guns wants range, they lose out on damage.

If a rail gun wants damage, they lose out on range.

Ahh, a maddie, well those don't need to be double hardened either I think.

My suggestion with damage mods, is that they reduce your resistances in addition to giving you extra damage. In this way, even if they chose the double hardener route, using a damage mod helps negate the benefit of using 2.

Read that post I linked and check out my ideas for the turrets. Then scroll down and check out harpyj's suggestion about doing the same thing, just with ammo.

Basically, if a rail guns wants range, they lose out on damage.

If a rail gun wants damage, they lose out on range.

UGh, lore. No, I'm not a fan of EVE lore when it comes to balancing. What works in space WILL NOT work on the ground. These are 2 completely different games with opposite goals and gameplay.

And beside, Dust 514 need's it's own lore. What works in the vacuum of space doesn't work on the ground. Planets are a whole different ballgame.

Ever get hit with a rail, without your hardeners up? For a shield tank, it means death. I almost HAVE to run 2 hardeners to ensure I don't get 2 shot everywhere I go. With armor tanks, you get a nice rep. On a shield tank, often times it seems like FOREVER waiting on shield recharge.

Add me in game and I'll let you drive my proto gunnlogis sometime to get a feel for them. Those armor reps make the use of a second hardener less attractive, not to mention the CPU limitations, I know. But if you think about this too, a gunnlogi has NOTHING useful to put in their low slots (free slots) where as a maddie can fit 2 types of equipment.