DUST Search - [Feedback] The ion pistol is worst in its class

Asha Starwind wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Asha Starwind wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Asha Starwind wrote:

I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here. You bunch are jumping the gun here, the Ion pistol may turn out to be the shotgun sidearm that has been requested by every shotgun user ever.

Perhaps you should read the thread.
How can it possibly be the 'shotgun sidearm' when it's so terrible compared to all the other sidearms? There are other sidearms doing more DPS with twice the range.

Please do explain how this is 'jumping the gun', though. CCP have released stats. The stats are terrible. Are we meant to wait until we can see the pretty models before we point out that the gun is terrible?

What you are doing right now is pretty much looking at the current shotgun or NKs and saying they're complete garbage based on their expressed stats.

What I am doing is explaining, quite clearly, that the weapon is outperformed in almost every way stats wise.
Would you like to give me an example of a weapon that has worse stats than everything else yet actually is a good weapon?

You don't know how damage it does. based solely on the released stats. Pellets/bullets fired per shot is not listed, and you're making the assumption that it is 1, and that may be wrong.


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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8559	Posted - 2014.01.27 17:35:00 - [1] - Quote Comparing the stats of the ion pistol to existing sidearms, this is a weapon of very dubious value. IGÇÖm not comparing it to nova knives, because theyGÇÖre really quite different, but it is horrendously underpowered compared to the other ranged sidearms. To prove this, I have some statistics. Please do feel free to point out if I have missed anything. First, letGÇÖs compare its DPS to the other sidearms. ItGÇÖs worth noting as well that the ion pistol and scrambler pistol are both semi-automatic, meaning that they will very rarely attain their full DPS value, especially in the case of the ion pistol where the restrictively low RoF means that taps will not always translate to shots. The RoF of the ion pistol is 375 RPM. At 50 damage a shot, with a maxed fire rate this translates to 312.5 DPS. It does, however, have a charge shot mechanic which allows you to charge up a shot for 1.45 seconds for 350 damage. This gives a DPS of 241. The RoF of the magsec SMG is 666 RPM. At 35 damage a shot, this translates to 388 DPS. However, there is a short 0.3 second fire delay which reduces the initial DPS to 273. The RoF of scrambler pistol is 400 RPM. At 80 damage a shot, this translates to 533 DPS. Notably, it also has a 450% damage bonus on headshots. The RoF of the submachine gun is 1000 RPM. At 23 damage a shot this translates to 383 DPS. The RoF of the bolt pistol is 150 RPM. At 135 damage a shot, this translates to 337.5 DPS. However, there is a short 0.25 second fire delay which reduces the initial DPS to 253. From this damage assessment we can see that the ion pistol is the weakest sidearm in terms of damage output when not considering the charge time on the bolt pistol and magsec SMGs. With those, it slightly outperforms them. A note on charge delay GÇô it is easily mitigated by pre-charging as the opponent comes around a corner, or constantly tapping the trigger as you move around ensuring you are charged up and ready to go at any time. This does not entirely discount the charge time GÇô it is a hindrance, but it is not a significant one. The charge shot mechanic of the ion pistol is not notable for any practical application. Upon firing a charge shot, the weapon will immediately overheat GÇô rendering follow-up shots useless. The alpha damage is not high enough to kill many opponents, so using the charge shot means you will be helpless. Additionally, using the charge shot as a follow-up to normal shots does not work because the charge time is too long and you would be better served by using normal shots. Now. Consider the sustained damage capability of each of these sidearms. The ion pistol has 12 shots in a clip before needing to reload. This gives 600 damage per clip. There is also possibly an overheat mechanic, though this is only known for the charge shot. The magsec SMG has 54 shots in a clip before needing to reload. This gives 1890 damage per clip. The SMG has 80 rounds per clip for 1760 damage per clip. The scrambler pistol has 11 rounds per clip for approximately 880 damage per clip. The bolt pistol has 6 rounds per clip for 810 damage per clip. The ion pistol is thoroughly outperformed by the other weapons in sustained damage output. The other weapons in its class give up to triple the damage per clip. This is more of a handicap than it appears as well GÇô many opponents have more than 600 EHP, meaning a reload is absolutely necessary for the ion pistol where it wouldnGÇÖt be for the other sidearms. The pistols generally have lower damage per clip than the SMGs, but the ion pistol still has the lowest in class there as well. Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8559	Posted - 2014.01.27 17:35:00 - [2] - Quote Finally, we have the range. Ion pistol GÇô 20m optimal. SMG GÇô 25-30m optimal. Scrambler pistol GÇô 30-35m optimal. Magsec SMG GÇô 40m optimal. Bolt pistol GÇô 45m optimal. This is huge. The ion pistol is not just the shortest ranged sidearm, it is by far the shortest ranged sidearm. Even its closest competitor can get up to 50% more range than it GÇô and the rail sidearms have over double the range. The ion pistol is completely unable to retaliate when sufficiently outranged and it gains nothing for it. To summarise, the ion pistol is outperformed in almost every category. It cannot compete in DPS. It cannot compete in sustained damage. Although alpha looks promising due to the charge mechanic, it loses out to the bolt pistol because it canGÇÖt follow through with its shots. It certainly canGÇÖt compete in range. It doesnGÇÖt have the RoF to be good at CQC. This is not the first time a close ranged weapon has been outperformed GÇôat close range- by longer ranged weapons, even in the DPS department. If a weapon is only able to be used at drastically shorter ranges than other weapons of its class, it needs significantly higher DPS than those in order to be useful. There needs to be an end to long ranged weapons out-DPSing close range weapons, especially when they have a higher RoF as well (which helps in CQC). The description of the ion pistol states that it is GÇ£a ruthlessly efficient close-quarters weaponGÇ¥. This is absolutely not the case should the ion pistol be released with these stats. Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8573	Posted - 2014.01.27 19:48:00 - [3] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Yeah. It should do about as much (even more, maybe)damage as the ScP. The main differences between the two should be that one has a headshot bonus and a longer range, but the other can charge a shot and has a lower range with a bit more DPS. Honestly, why just as much damage as the SCP? It has a lower range and an overheat mechanic. Isn't that justification for more DPS? Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8573	Posted - 2014.01.27 20:00:00 - [4] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Is that what the charge shot is? It says in the description it has the ability to overload, like a module in EVE, I assume. No idea what that keybind would be though. :/ Hold down R1. Charge up shot. Release shot. Overheat. Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8575	Posted - 2014.01.27 20:20:00 - [5] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here. You bunch are jumping the gun here, the Ion pistol may turn out to be the shotgun sidearm that has been requested by every shotgun user ever. Perhaps you should read the thread. How can it possibly be the 'shotgun sidearm' when it's so terrible compared to all the other sidearms? There are other sidearms doing more DPS with twice the range. Please do explain how this is 'jumping the gun', though. CCP have released stats. The stats are terrible. Are we meant to wait until we can see the pretty models before we point out that the gun is terrible? Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8586	Posted - 2014.01.27 20:40:00 - [6] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here. You bunch are jumping the gun here, the Ion pistol may turn out to be the shotgun sidearm that has been requested by every shotgun user ever. Perhaps you should read the thread. How can it possibly be the 'shotgun sidearm' when it's so terrible compared to all the other sidearms? There are other sidearms doing more DPS with twice the range. Please do explain how this is 'jumping the gun', though. CCP have released stats. The stats are terrible. Are we meant to wait until we can see the pretty models before we point out that the gun is terrible? What you are doing right now is pretty much looking at the current shotgun or NKs and saying they're complete garbage based on their expressed stats. What I am doing is explaining, quite clearly, that the weapon is outperformed in almost every way stats wise. Would you like to give me an example of a weapon that has worse stats than everything else yet actually is a good weapon? Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8593	Posted - 2014.01.27 21:04:00 - [7] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here. You bunch are jumping the gun here, the Ion pistol may turn out to be the shotgun sidearm that has been requested by every shotgun user ever. Perhaps you should read the thread. How can it possibly be the 'shotgun sidearm' when it's so terrible compared to all the other sidearms? There are other sidearms doing more DPS with twice the range. Please do explain how this is 'jumping the gun', though. CCP have released stats. The stats are terrible. Are we meant to wait until we can see the pretty models before we point out that the gun is terrible? What you are doing right now is pretty much looking at the current shotgun or NKs and saying they're complete garbage based on their expressed stats. What I am doing is explaining, quite clearly, that the weapon is outperformed in almost every way stats wise. Would you like to give me an example of a weapon that has worse stats than everything else yet actually is a good weapon? You don't know how damage it does. based solely on the released stats. Pellets/bullets fired per shot is not listed, and you're making the assumption that it is 1, and that may be wrong. The description of the ion pistol refers to a single 'slug' or 'discharge'. Also, if it fired multiple pellets it would quickly go from 'underpowered' to 'horrendously overpowered'. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8622	Posted - 2014.01.28 07:02:00 - [8] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I concur, if only because it would have a longer optimal range and higher damage output than the shotgun... Actually, it probably would make a lot of CQC Scouts happy considering how niche the shotgun is... Uhh, and why would they use it if stuff like the scrambler rifle outperforms it + more range? Just spitballing, if it had 5 pellets (as to not completely outperform the Shotgun on damage) you'd be dishing out 250 damage everytime you pulled the trigger with a range of 20 meters. Considering it has a 12 round magazine. Now compare that to the shotgun which has 44 damage x 12 (last I checked) pellets for 528 damage with a range of 4m with an 8 round magazine. Just personal preference but I'd much rather deal half damage at more than five times the range and I'm certain a lot of other players would agree with me. Trust me when I say that even though the scrambler rifle has longer range, you can't beat that sheer killing power and it would quickly become the flavor of the month. No more flavor of the month. Nerf its ROF or range Or actually make it decent first. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8639	Posted - 2014.01.28 18:27:00 - [9] - Quote Kilo Shells wrote: I noticed you used the max possible ammo on the scrambler pistol? The ion pistol might have a similar or even better operations skill. Also, the scrambler and the flaylock rely heavily on user skill ( if you missed with the flaylock your probably dead) you sorta have to wait and see. Ah, I've been so used to scrambler operation 5 I've forgotten about that. I haven't even included the flaylock in my comparisons, as it happens. The point about the scrambler relying on user skill doesn't change anything. It matters even more if you miss shots with the ion pistol - it has a lower RoF and an overheat function, meaning that if you miss shots you're even more screwed. The scrambler pistol is actually a good comparison to the ion pistol. Let's have a look. Damage - SCP 80, IP 50 - SCP wins significantly RoF - SCP 500, IP 375 - SCP wins significantly Range - SCP 30-35, IP 20 - SCP wins significantly Clip size - SCP 6-11, IP 12 - IP wins marginally Do you see? ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8643	Posted - 2014.01.28 20:14:00 - [10] - Quote Hoover Damn wrote: Flint Beastgood III wrote: I want to go full Gallente after 1.8, but CCP are making it real hard for me to justify doing so. Being able to pack 800+ ehp without even touching a heavy suit isn't enough for you? You realise that's almost certainly going to be nerfed, right? He's talking about after 1.8, when Gallente logis will have been brought back in line and when (should there be no change to the released stats) the Gallente weaponry will be inferior to everyone else's. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8647	Posted - 2014.01.28 23:54:00 - [11] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: What if this gun, like the shotgun, fired pellets? That means each damage value would need to be multiplied by the pellet number According to the CPM, it doesn't. Besides which, if it fired more than about two pellets it would start to get ridiculously powerful. And if you only have two pellets, why be a pellet based weapon with so few? ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8647	Posted - 2014.01.29 00:13:00 - [12] - Quote AP Grasshopper wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Artificer Ghost wrote: Is that what the charge shot is? It says in the description it has the ability to overload, like a module in EVE, I assume. No idea what that keybind would be though. :/ Hold down R1. Charge up shot. Release shot. Overheat. Overload and overheat are two different features. Care to explain how so? ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 8963	Posted - 2014.02.05 20:12:00 - [13] - Quote Lazy Scumbag wrote: Wouldn't be the first time they released a gimped weapon (plasma cannon) It will almost certainly have a use, but I think I'll stick with my toxin. Quite. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10404	Posted - 2014.03.05 07:10:00 - [14] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: I think you're majorly underestimating the value of the charge shot. 385 damage at proto is more than a Thale's. Throw in Prof and maybe a sidearm damage mod or two, and you're looking at pushing 500 damage alpha in your sidearm slot. That'll OHK the vast majority of STD mediums. Combine this with a headshot and you're OHKing most medium frames with your sidearm. Combine this level of alpha with rifle nerfs and you'll be well served by starting every engagement within 20m with a charged shot from an Ion Pistol. Much like the scrambler rifle, some will call it mediocre in comparison to the full-auto options, but in skilled hands the alpha damage is going to harvest buckets and buckets of tears. The difference between the scrambler rifle and the ion pistol is that the scrambler rifle can follow up shots. What if you don't OHKO with your charge shot with the ion pistol? You are dead. It's not a case of just starting each engagement with the ion pistol and then switching to a rifle or main weapon because the ion pistol overheats when the charge shot is used. Looking at precedents for that, what can't we do whilst overheated? Switch weapons, sprint, throw grenades, etc. As a result, it can't really be used competitively even if you're headshotting fairly consistently. But if you're headshotting, why not use the scrambler pistol? It'll do an absurd amount more damage than the ion pistol, while also having the ability to fire follow up shots immediately. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11962	Posted - 2014.04.01 07:23:00 - [15] - Quote Predictably, on release, the ion pistol has exactly the same stats and does not have multiple 'pellets' per shot. It also features an overheat function that doesn't actually require charging the weapon. Oh, and if that wasn't bad enough the hipfire spread is massive aaaaand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg6ehAbPV-A&feature=youtu.be You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.