DUST Search - Lets talk shields and armor. Nerfs and buffs just won't cut it.

BL4CKST4R wrote:

Sigh... The only two things that should happen with shields is proper scaling and less pg more cpu.

Complex extenders are fine where they are the module is 50% less he than an armor module but when stacked on a suit the HP difference is 35%. Your shield repairer and overall resistances to damage make up for this difference and possibly go beyond it.

The shieldpenalty is so laughable that I wish that armor penalty affected me like shields affects you. You have to wait 1 second to repair shield... This is such a pathetic penalty compared to being 15% slower than anything. Do you know what that feels like? You can't take cover effectively, people will hunt you down if your armor is down because they know it won't repair and you arent going to make it very far, you can't even jump over a ledge with that penalty a freaking ledge. That penalty does not need to go up at all.

And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough!

I actually agree with you on CPU upgrades... This is actually a really good idea...

Armor repairers are actually pretty bad for the reasons you said they are not bad. Specially with the shift of the Gallente to repair tank these will need to be buffed. Probably to 3/5/7.

Ferroscales and reactices both suck to fit and need some buffs.

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Kara Anschel Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:05:00 - [1] - Quote There has been a lot of talk lately about shields and their failings, armor being too strong, and the like. Many suggestions have been to buff shields, or nerf armor, or both. This simply won't work. Just nerfing things leads to results like the flaylock, just buffing things is what brought us things like the callogi, and buffing AND nerfing things has brought us the tank spam that is 1.7. So i propose not just increasing shield extenders health, and increasing the speed penalty on plates but a big change in how everything works and fits. This is going to be a long post with multiple "chapters" so get ready. I. Shields Shield extenders are in an interesting position. They don't give very much health, but shields get fantastic regen to make up for it. There are things like fitting costs, recharge delays, recharge rates, and overall tank that need to be addressed. Lets start with overall tank. A. Extenders Currently shield extenders sit at strange health values. Std: 22 HP Adv: 33 HP Pro: 66 HP There is a odd difference between the levels, a 50% increase from B to A, but a 100% increase from A to P. These need to be streamlined and increased to make all levels viable. Proposed health increase. Std: 35 HP Adv: 55 HP Pro: 75 HP (These numbers are entirely changeable) With these increases the shield extenders still have less health than armor plates but provide a meaningful amount of health and a steady increase, promoting use of higher level gear. Now we cant just simply buff the health, we need to adjust fitting costs and that pesky recharge delay. Fitting costs are currently CPU/PG Std: 18/3 Adv: 36/6 Pro: 54/11 These need to be adjusted in both ways, CPU needs to go up and PG needs to go down. I'm not great with fitting cost numbers so I would really like input on these. Also by CPU needs to go up, I mean up, and PG down, more on that later. Std: 20/1 Adv. 40/3 Pro: 60/8 Maybe even more than that, I'm just throwing numbers out so I can change them later after feedback. Shield extenders also have a shield depleted recharge delay modifier. Currently they add a percent amount to the delay Std: 3% Adv: 4% Pro: 7% I'd like to see these go up. Woah! go up, hell no! Yes, up. Why? Regulators is why. Proposed change Std: 4% Adv: 6% Pro: 8% I'd like to keep even increases, but that is a big hit to current ADV I know, bear with me. That's means stacking 4 Complex extenders yields a whopping 32% recharge delay. However there are ways to counteract this. B. Shield Regulators Currently regulators reduce the recharge delay on shields by a set percent. They affect both delays, depleted and normal (correct?) and simply by increasing they percent given would make them viable low slot mods. Currently Std: 10% Adv: 20% Pro: 25% I would like to see them at this amount. Again provide a meaningful increase between levels and make them competitive with plates. Std: 15% Adv: 25% Pro: 35% That means stacking two regulators could provide a roughly 60% reduction to the recharge delay (stacking penalties.) I also think their fitting costs are pretty light so those don't really need changing. C. Shield Rechargers/ Energizers With all these changes to extenders and regulators, I don't think these really need a change, maybe a CPU reduction on the energizers? D. CPU Upgrades CPU upgrades need some meaningful use. They don't cost anything and provide a large boost to CPU amount. By increasing extenders cost and maybe the others, CPU upgrades could become necessary. This would go a long way stopping dual tanking as well. If you want all PRO level extenders, regulators, and rechargers, and CPU uprgade should be necessary. By maxing your shields, you have to sacrifice armor tank, but you could still dual tank by running lower level modules of both armor and shield. II. Armor Armor is also in an interesting position, I don't think it needs nearly as many changes as shields, but it still has some balancing issues. Ferroscales and Reactives are practically useless do to fitting costs, the only high slots armor can effectively use is damage mods and PG upgrades cost a low slot. A. Armor Plates I truly feel armor plates are in a good spot. Armor has no natural regen, so you already have to sacrifice tank for a small amount of regen and it you don't take a repper, you better hope a logi will stick to your ass all game. I simply feel that the speed penalty needs to be a little bit higher than it currently is. 10% on Complex was goddamn unbearable, but a 1% increase across the board will add up. Currently Std: 2% Adv: 3% Pro: 5% By increasing the penalty by 1% 3 complex plates gives an 18% move speed reduction. That is huge, crossing the map for fire fights, and even avoiding things like grenades and RRs becomes a problem. B. Armor Repairers I also feel armor repairers are fine. They give a low, perpetual regen, and cost a low slot taking away from overall tank. C. Reactive Plates I want these to work so badly. Their high fitting costs make them completely worthless. The offer a low movespeed penalty but barely give any armor (25 for basic? really?), only give 1hp/s repair (2 on complex! YAY!) and cost more. Std: 25 HP/ 1HPs/ 10CPU/ 4PG- no penalty Adv: 40 HP/ 1HPs/ 24CPU/ 9PG- 1% penalty Pro: 60HP/ 2HPs/ 36CPU/ 16PG (16? sweet Jebus)- 1% penalty They need some major rethinking in my books. To justify those fitting costs they need an HP and regen buff, or the cost needs to be dramatically lowered. I think the costs would be justified if they provided half the health and repair of plates and reppers, not a fraction. D. Ferroscale plates I also want these to work, but their fitting costs don't justify the loss of tank. I think the health amount is fine, but simply lower the fitting costs to be the same as plates themselves and they would be good.
Kara Anschel Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:06:00 - [2] - Quote reserved
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 370	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:15:00 - [3] - Quote The problem created here is that you are suggesting that Shield should have to run stuff in their Low Slots (CPU increases, Shield Regulators) in order to, in my terms, 'make up' for the buffs and nerfs you have given to the recharge of Shield Extenders. Armor has no such requirements for their High Slots. Even if they only have one module to put in they at least can fit something other than "I need these to make my Shields decent." Even if the HP bit was closer, being unable to use the Low Slots for any kind of utility would still likely make Armor better.
Kara Anschel Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:17:00 - [4] - Quote True, and I would like to see some armor item in high slots, but I have no idea what it would even be. Until resistances are put into the game (module form) I really don't see what to do there.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 265	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:23:00 - [5] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: The problem created here is that you are suggesting that Shield should have to run stuff in their Low Slots (CPU increases, Shield Regulators) in order to, in my terms, 'make up' for the buffs and nerfs you have given to the recharge of Shield Extenders. Armor has no such requirements for their High Slots. Even if they only have one module to put in they at least can fit something other than "I need these to make my Shields decent." Even if the HP bit was closer, being unable to use the Low Slots for any kind of utility would still likely make Armor better. I personally think that shields should have 8pg and 54 cpu at proto, and with people able to put biotic modules in the lows, which have high pg but low cpu, or regulators that should follow the same idea of low cpu high pg, shields would be made decent. Also, like the HP buffs, but more importantly than that would be increased recharge rate, and reduced recharge delay (not shield depleted recharge delay, just recharge delay) Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 265	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:24:00 - [6] - Quote Kara Anschel wrote: True, and I would like to see some armor item in high slots, but I have no idea what it would even be. Until resistances are put into the game (module form) I really don't see what to do there. Move armor reppers to high slots, and make them cost more than they currently do Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Kara Anschel Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:26:00 - [7] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Kara Anschel wrote: True, and I would like to see some armor item in high slots, but I have no idea what it would even be. Until resistances are put into the game (module form) I really don't see what to do there. Move armor reppers to high slots, and make them cost more than they currently do See, I don't know about that. Running 3 plates and a PG in that lows and all reps in the highs makes a nasty tank for assaults and logis, but this would wreck the gal scout and heavy since they only have one high slot. I'd like to see Gal suits become regen tanks like in EVE not brick tanks.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 265	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:28:00 - [8] - Quote Kara Anschel wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Kara Anschel wrote: True, and I would like to see some armor item in high slots, but I have no idea what it would even be. Until resistances are put into the game (module form) I really don't see what to do there. Move armor reppers to high slots, and make them cost more than they currently do See, I don't know about that. Running 3 plates and a PG in that lows and all reps in the highs makes a nasty tank for assaults and logis, but this would wreck the gal scout and heavy since they only have one high slot. I'd like to see Gal suits become regen tanks like in EVE not brick tanks. The gal scout will have 2 in 1.8, and they are not meant to tank, and besides they are getting a 3 hp/s inherent boost. Also, heavies should not have high regen unless they are coupled with a logibro, so it doesn't matter Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 371	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:37:00 - [9] - Quote Kara Anschel wrote: True, and I would like to see some armor item in high slots, but I have no idea what it would even be. Until resistances are put into the game (module form) I really don't see what to do there. Are you suggesting that Armor Resistance modules be placed in the High Slots? In that regard, the first post on the forums would be "Armor tanked suits get slots that actually increase their survivability while Shield tanked suits only let them get into the next fight sooner. Except that doesn't happen because the Armor guy killed them in the first fight." It is a difficult problem. CCP probably should have just lowered the speed nerf OR increased the Health of the plates rather than doing both. I understand why they did that; Shields were seen as just flat-out better. However, now it is "Shields need to be buffed."
Kara Anschel Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:39:00 - [10] - Quote Not suggesting resistances be high slots but we need more modules than we currently have. On my gal assault, I'm going to run 2 reps 2 plates, and 3 damage mods. There is no variety that we desperately need.

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1726	Posted - 2014.01.26 21:12:00 - [11] - Quote Sigh... The only two things that should happen with shields is proper scaling and less pg more cpu. Complex extenders are fine where they are the module is 50% less he than an armor module but when stacked on a suit the HP difference is 35%. Your shield repairer and overall resistances to damage make up for this difference and possibly go beyond it. The shieldpenalty is so laughable that I wish that armor penalty affected me like shields affects you. You have to wait 1 second to repair shield... This is such a pathetic penalty compared to being 15% slower than anything. Do you know what that feels like? You can't take cover effectively, people will hunt you down if your armor is down because they know it won't repair and you arent going to make it very far, you can't even jump over a ledge with that penalty a freaking ledge. That penalty does not need to go up at all. And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough! I actually agree with you on CPU upgrades... This is actually a really good idea... Armor repairers are actually pretty bad for the reasons you said they are not bad. Specially with the shift of the Gallente to repair tank these will need to be buffed. Probably to 3/5/7. Ferroscales and reactices both suck to fit and need some buffs. Armor and Shields are not the same!
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 513	Posted - 2014.01.26 21:31:00 - [12] - Quote The problem with shields is that shield tanks are supposed to be fast, and hit hard. Damage moflds are in the lows in Eve, because shields are supposed to skirmish. Get in, deal damage, get out. Armor is supposed to be tankier, but deal less damage. They make up for this with more EWAR capabilities, using them to gain an edvantage over shield tankers. I would move damage slots to the lows. Also move energizers to the lows, and leave rechargers inthe highs. Reason being is that energizers reduce total shield HP while greatly boosting regen, acting like shield power relays from eve, which greatly increase shield regen at the cost of capacitor. Then, move EVERYTHING ELSE (save fitting mods) to the highs. Kincats, myrofiber whatever's, hacking modules, EVERYTHING. All that should be in the lows are damage mods, fitting mods, energizers, and regulators. Which means, armor tanks can stack armor plates, and use kincats to offset the speed reduction, just as shields use regulators to off's t the recharge delay. The at.or tanks also hack faster, melee harder, all that jazz. Shields can deal more damage, befitting their skirmish role. Shields have gank. Armor has tank. Plus armor has ewar.
McFurious TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 570	Posted - 2014.01.26 21:33:00 - [13] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Sigh... The only two things that should happen with shields is proper scaling and less pg more cpu. Complex extenders are fine where they are the module is 50% less he than an armor module but when stacked on a suit the HP difference is 35%. Your shield repairer and overall resistances to damage make up for this difference and possibly go beyond it. The shieldpenalty is so laughable that I wish that armor penalty affected me like shields affects you. You have to wait 1 second to repair shield... This is such a pathetic penalty compared to being 15% slower than anything. Do you know what that feels like? You can't take cover effectively, people will hunt you down if your armor is down because they know it won't repair and you arent going to make it very far, you can't even jump over a ledge with that penalty a freaking ledge. That penalty does not need to go up at all. And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough! I actually agree with you on CPU upgrades... This is actually a really good idea... Armor repairers are actually pretty bad for the reasons you said they are not bad. Specially with the shift of the Gallente to repair tank these will need to be buffed. Probably to 3/5/7. Ferroscales and reactices both suck to fit and need some buffs. There was supposedly some plans to implement vaulting over ledges as well as run-sliding. Haven't heard anything about that in a while though. Totally agree on everything, especially the ferroscale and reactive plates. They don't provide enough benefit to justify their fitting reqs. Half Irish. Often angry. Closed Beta Masshole Durka durka.... Bitch.
Havaru Fox Golden Empire of EvE 0	Posted - 2014.01.26 21:38:00 - [14] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough! for me (caldari logi) its more that i see the armour squats using the repair, that i cant really use to support my caldari friends in FW. the adv that shield has in the reg (that i love as a solo player), while i really, REALLY hate the fakt that i cant really stand up in a 1on1 situation, because the armour guys have more flat HP and can use damage mods. so what happents is simpel: field poke with reg time = shield wins close fight without reg = armour wins and based on the fakt that you fight over objektives in FW, then you can clearly see that shield sucks when it comes to objektive play, because you dont have the time to reg. but.. maybe thats because i play logi and dont have the bonus of the assault suit. i really look forward for the new heavy suits and hope that caldari FW will become a thing that is not a almost sure autolose, because we get overrunned by the enemy.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 292	Posted - 2014.01.27 12:19:00 - [15] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Sigh... The only two things that should happen with shields is proper scaling and less pg more cpu. Complex extenders are fine where they are the module is 50% less he than an armor module but when stacked on a suit the HP difference is 35%. Your shield repairer and overall resistances to damage make up for this difference and possibly go beyond it. The shieldpenalty is so laughable that I wish that armor penalty affected me like shields affects you. You have to wait 1 second to repair shield... This is such a pathetic penalty compared to being 15% slower than anything. Do you know what that feels like? You can't take cover effectively, people will hunt you down if your armor is down because they know it won't repair and you arent going to make it very far, you can't even jump over a ledge with that penalty a freaking ledge. That penalty does not need to go up at all. And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough! I actually agree with you on CPU upgrades... This is actually a really good idea... Armor repairers are actually pretty bad for the reasons you said they are not bad. Specially with the shift of the Gallente to repair tank these will need to be buffed. Probably to 3/5/7. Ferroscales and reactices both suck to fit and need some buffs. cpu is fine where its at, pg needs to be reduced for shields and raised for plates, cpu for plates is fine as well. the fact that a plate at STD is 400% more HP than a STD shield is a problem, the penalty is not meaningless, and if you wish that, then just use shields insteadGÇªif you're 15% slower then you're tanking your suit wrong, just use ADV/PRO plates, and put on ONE kincat. if you want repair, again, use shields or an armor hive, i wish i could stack damage mods in the lows. Also, shields are even harder to fit than ferroscales or reasctives Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 520	Posted - 2014.01.27 12:31:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem with shields is that shield tanks are supposed to be fast, and hit hard. Damage moflds are in the lows in Eve, because shields are supposed to skirmish. Get in, deal damage, get out. Armor is supposed to be tankier, but deal less damage. They make up for this with more EWAR capabilities, using them to gain an edvantage over shield tankers. I would move damage slots to the lows. Also move energizers to the lows, and leave rechargers inthe highs. Reason being is that energizers reduce total shield HP while greatly boosting regen, acting like shield power relays from eve, which greatly increase shield regen at the cost of capacitor. Then, move EVERYTHING ELSE (save fitting mods) to the highs. Kincats, myrofiber whatever's, hacking modules, EVERYTHING. All that should be in the lows are damage mods, fitting mods, energizers, and regulators. Which means, armor tanks can stack armor plates, and use kincats to offset the speed reduction, just as shields use regulators to off's t the recharge delay. The at.or tanks also hack faster, melee harder, all that jazz. Shields can deal more damage, befitting their skirmish role. Shields have gank. Armor has tank. Plus armor has ewar. If anything we need more High slot modules not even more low slots. An armor tanker has already to sacrifice a lot of usefull modules to tank HP, where as the option shield tankers is quite obvious shield or damage mods there is not that much to put in the high slot (may be a precision enhancer for the Cal scout..)
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 520	Posted - 2014.01.27 12:33:00 - [17] - Quote Havaru Fox wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: And then you have regulators, I hate those things. They are a direct counter to your penalty! -ú#_++&! -Ñ if I had some sort of kinetic catalyzer for movement speed in the highs I would be so happy. But yours isn't even good enough! You have a meaningless penalty with a counter for it and it's not good enough! for me (caldari logi) its more that i see the armour squats using the repair, that i cant really use to support my caldari friends in FW. the adv that shield has in the reg (that i love as a solo player), while i really, REALLY hate the fakt that i cant really stand up in a 1on1 situation, because the armour guys have more flat HP and can use damage mods. so what happents is simpel: field poke with reg time = shield wins close fight without reg = armour wins and based on the fakt that you fight over objektives in FW, then you can clearly see that shield sucks when it comes to objektive play, because you dont have the time to reg. but.. maybe thats because i play logi and dont have the bonus of the assault suit. i really look forward for the new heavy suits and hope that caldari FW will become a thing that is not a almost sure autolose, because we get overrunned by the enemy. Thanks to current short TTK that armor does not mean that much If you flank and get the first shot your target should be already dead by the time he can react. And flanking is sooo much easier in shield tanked suits thanks to higher speed/mobility...
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness 1064	Posted - 2014.01.27 12:47:00 - [18] - Quote sighs Not another one of these ******* threads. I run a pure shield tank on my Caldari alt. I am also speced to proto with every Gallente suit there is on my main character. My Caldari alt is no slouch (11m SP). I have never once felt like my Caldari alt (shields) was in any way UP. In fact, since the recent prevalence of the rail and combat rifles on the field, I actually feel just as successful, if not more, with my Cal as With my Gal. I play four different highly skilled characters each specialized into one of each of the four races. Who else here can speak from this kind of experience, besides me? {:)}{3GÇó>
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2010	Posted - 2014.01.27 12:58:00 - [19] - Quote Highslot armor module, increases remote nanohive/repair tool repair rate/amount. Each module stacks rep amount by 10/20/30%
killer carrot top Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 8	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:01:00 - [20] - Quote Honestly the resistance for different damage types should be a character skill and there should be two extra slots on the fitting screen where a player can either select different resistance postings or shield resistance booster IE one explosive resistance plating and one EM shield resistance booster or set for both slots to tank either armor or shield depending on play style. Mind you alot of number crunching would have to done on this. But it would follow the same thing as bsc adv and pro with the resistance ratings Idk what would be a good counter for that any ideas?



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