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Logi Bro
2700
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
...While at the same time, the basic plates are wow? I mean, going from STD to PRO, the stats line up like:
STD: 85 hp 2% penalty
ADV: 110 hp 3% penalty
PRO: 135 hp 5% penalty
So you get a STD plate, it gives you awesome HP for a negligible penalty. From STD to ADV, you gain 1% more penalty and 25 more HP. So that's 50% greater penalty and ~30% greater health. ADV plates are useful, but less efficient than STD plates. (I would expect higher tiers to be more or equally efficient, wouldn't you?) Then the big problem. The leap from STD to PRO is a 150% penalty increase, with a ~59% HP increase. So that means complex plates are incredibly inefficient compared to STD plates. Two STD plates give more health and less penalty than complex, and even use less CPU/PG to boot.
So I was wondering what people would think of nerfing basic plates and buffing the complex plates? Here's how I would do it:
Make each percentage point of penalty equal a set amount of health. I was thinking 30 HP per 1% penalty, and then multiply the amount by the number of percentages that are stacked. When I wrote that, I even confused myself, so how about an example?
A basic plate is 2% penalty, and then each percentage point is 30, so 30*2 is 60. Then your total penalty is 2%, so multiply the armor by 1.02, making it 61. The idea behind the multiplier is to benefit the 5% plate, so it will have more health, however slight that health may be.
So it would then look like
STD: 61 HP 2% penalty --> 67 w/maxed skills
ADV: 93 HP 3% penalty --> 102 w/maxed skills
PRO: 157 HP 5% penalty --> 172 w/maxed skills
So now the people that stack those basic plates to brick tank while losing very little speed have been nerfed, and people that are willing to forfeit their speed have been buffed.
Look at it think way: If you stack a basic and an enhanced plate in our current system, you end up with equal penalty to the complex plate, but 214 health, that's 66 more health. A whole complex shield extender more health, and you even end up using LESS PG than a complex plate would, and equal CPU. In the new system, you can stack a basic and enhanced plate to get the same penalty and get 169 health, while the complex gives 172. That 3 HP difference isn't actually that useful, but it makes it so the combination of the other two don't overpower the complex. It makes the complex plate more than just viable, but really useful.
TLDR; Nerf basic and enhanced armor plates, buff complex armor plates.
Also, let me just point one thing out. Some people may be thinking: "If people are willing to sacrifice two module slots, why not let them have the health of one module, even if it is supposed to be better?" The problem is that they are sacrificing two module slots to get the equivalent of two better modules. They are getting the same penalty and armor as a complex armor plate, while also receiving an extra amount of HP that is equivalent to a complex shield extender. So they are receiving the benefits of two complex modules at the expense of the penalty of only one of those modules. I'd hope that isn't working as intended.
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Logi Bro
2700
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Whilst we're at it, I would like to see the lower tier shield extenders be somewhat decent.
I agree completely. Just doing a simple hotfix that makes them 30-50-70 would be better that what we have now, though I suspect that there are far better options than those numbers I just now proposed.
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Logi Bro
2700
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:I agree with the OP, the HP difference between the Plates should be bigger to encourage the use of Complex a little more. Shield Extenders HP values need to be adjusted as well.
Shield Extenders have the same penalty across the tiers if I'm not mistaken though? Shouldn't Armor Plates have the same then? You know, 3 or 5% speed penalty (or whatever the exact number should be) no matter the tier? Either that or make the penalty on Shield Extenders different across the tiers like with Armor Plates (correct me if that's already the case, I can't remember for sure).
I'm pretty sure the extender penalty is a flat 3% across all tiers. Should be 2%, 3%, 5% TBH. Just to line it up with plates.
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Logi Bro
2701
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:We do not need to be weakening HP we need to be increasing it to help fix TTK. Also the OP's idea just gives vets that much more advantage over newberries.
Lower tier plates still have obvious advantages, mainly speed and CPU/PG costs. You seem to forget that a person trying to equip a complex is going to run slower than another equipping a basic.
There is a clear trade off between modules, it hardly makes a difference when you have stacked proto squads.
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Logi Bro
2701
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I'm pretty sure the extender penalty is a flat 3% across all tiers. Should be 2%, 3%, 5% TBH. Just to line it up with plates. 2, 3 and 5% sounds good for Shield Extenders. It really should be the same for Extenders/Plates. Your Armor Plates HP values looks good too I think, although maybe slightly less HP on the Complex Plates. Shield Extender HP values could be 33/55/77 or 30/50/70 or something similar.
To be fair, the complex armor plates I proposed only have 24 more health with maxed skills.
I do agree with your extender stats, currently the non-complex extenders are all but useless.
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Logi Bro
2704
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I'm torn. Double the PG for 35 more hp is lame, but the awesome stats of the plates in the first place is lovely. Like being hugged by a big metal bulletproof teddybear.
I suppose that some tweaks to PG/CPU would be in order if these changes were to go through. Let me make some edits to the OP, and let me know what you think of those.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3032
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Posted - 2014.03.20 03:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bump for 1.8.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3034
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Posted - 2014.03.20 05:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:You want to buff plate hp while reducing fitting cost? ...Ooooooooooookay.
Quadrupling basic plate PG cost....and nerfing them at the same time.
Unless you meant the complex plates, which I suggested get a whooping 17 more hp. So OP.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3034
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Posted - 2014.03.20 07:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Basic and Enhanced Armor plates are the best things.
Complex plates aren't even worth it. unless you have no slots.
That was sort of my point.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3039
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Posted - 2014.03.20 15:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I know this isn't EVE. I am not stating that AV/vehicles are balanced. I understand there is a problem with AV. I understand that you think CCP doesn't listen or know how to balance things. I understand that you may believe that another patch may not come for a year. I know that the game has problems. I am not trying to say anything about balance, timely releases, quality of released content, competence of CCP or players or anything other than the following:
Moving up in tiers should provide decreasing rewards with prototype gear only giving a small increase in performance but a large increase in price. Spending ISK shouldn't give a player an automatic win button but it should give a performance boost. Most things in New Eden are this way, yes there are few exceptions but for the most part the higher meta gear gives a lower percentage boost in performance.
You and I think one other person have stated this now. "Don't give prototype gear a huge advantage over standard." The thing is, there are no such things as prototype and standard modules, they're complex and basic. It isn't just semantics, let me explain.
If you make the jump from a prototype suit to a standard suit you get nothing but losses, literally the only advantage is lower ISK costs, that is the only purpose of lower tier suits. If you were to make the jump from complex to basic, however, you get reduced effects from whatever module you were using, but also reduced CPU/PG costs, and reduced penalty if the module has a penalty. There is a purpose to lower tier modules, they use less resources so you can make room for a better weapon, or equipment, or whatever it is you need. If tiericide were to happen, complex, enhanced, and basic would all stay, because they all serve a purpose.
Basic plates would still have a lot of use if my proposed changes were to happen. They would provide a low resource, low penalty HP buff, and if you wanted more HP, then you better suck it up and use up more of your CPU/PG, and take a harder hit to your speed.
Although I understand the point you are trying to make, if we were to use that philosophy, we would need to nerf complex shield extenders because they give such a high increase in performance, 100% to be exact. And I definitely don't see anyone complaining about how OP shield extenders are.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3042
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sarus Rambo wrote:Logi Bro wrote:
Although I understand the point you are trying to make, if we were to use that philosophy, we would need to nerf complex shield extenders because they give such a high increase in performance, 100% to be exact. And I definitely don't see anyone complaining about how OP shield extenders are.
This is a bad argument. Its not that Proto shield extenders need to be nerfed, basic and advanced need to be buffed to actually be in line and worth something. 66 vs 22 is too large a disparity in effectiveness. something like 44, 55, 66 would be much better.
That was exactly my point. 
I was saying his philosophy was flawed, and that his argument could just as easily by applied to nerfing shield extenders.
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