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Anti-Armor: Much Work, Little Payoff

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Clone D Grundstein Automation 64	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:41:00 - [1] - Quote I spent some SP on buffing my swarm launcher skills because I was tired of being harassed by HAVs. After playing anti-armor for a while, I've built a rather inexpensive anti-armor dropsuit that is as effective as I can be for the price. The focus of the build is AV grenades, the swarm launcher and mobility (light suit) to improve chances against 80 JG blasters and maneuvering to safety or temporary pursuit. I've noticed that the reward/loss ratio of playing anti-armor indicates that it is a powerless class. Additionally my WP are quite low when I focus on anti-armor. Observations - To lock on to a target requires at least some direct exposure to the target itself. - During the lock on process is a perfect time for enemy infantry/LAV/HAV/Dropship to pick you off. - Firing rockets discloses your position making you an instant target to all enemy. - Because anti-armor is targeting highly mobile vehicles, the vehicle generally retreats to recover HP. - HAVs often work in pairs now which will reduce the anti-armor attempts of an entire team to pointlessness. - Because anti-armor contributes such a small fraction of the total HAV take down, the chance of achieving a kill (vs kill assist) are very low. - If the target rounds a corner after rocket discharge, then the rockets will impact obstacles, as they are not smart enough to go around. Tactical Lessons - 1 Anti-armor is useful for scaring away 1 HAV for 30 seconds, although chances are that ammo will be exhausted, so carry a hive. - 1 Anti-armor + 1 friendly tank is a great combination against an enemy tank. - A tanker will commonly dismount and attempt to kill you if he feels that his tank is in danger. Be on the ready to use your firearm. - Don't bother chasing down vehicles. Their HP will have recovered by the time you get to them. The anti-armor class is a deterrent to get them to leave. My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. - We need armor piercing rounds that do damage to the operator and passengers. - Seeing as how most teams don't bother to defend captured objectives, don't bother playing this class. - As snipers kill snipers best, let vehicles kill vehicles. - Because anti-armor is so weak, the trade-off of your team contribution toward capturing objectives is too great. Has anyone found the anti-armor class to be a lucrative endeavor? If so do you have any pointers on how to achieve potency? Grundstein Automation
devonus durga P.L.A.N. B 217	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:44:00 - [2] - Quote Sp for damage is supposably coming 1.8. That will make driving the tank off with no kill semi profitable. Proto Stompers Information/Wanted board Tap, Tap
SGT NOVA STAR Ahrendee Mercenaries 203	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:45:00 - [3] - Quote sooo, your complaining that your STD swarm cant kill a tank with PRO modules? VAYU! I CHOOSE YOU!
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1085	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:46:00 - [4] - Quote If I need to kill or drive off tanks I call in a tank. The only reason to run AV right now is if you relish the challenge. CCP will fix it. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Clone D Grundstein Automation 64	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:47:00 - [5] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: sooo, your complaining that your STD swarm cant kill a tank with PRO modules? No, I am asking about how to make anti-armor more lucrative. It sounds like damage will be rewarded in 1.8. Tanks deserve the buffs that they earn. Grundstein Automation
devonus durga P.L.A.N. B 217	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:48:00 - [6] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: sooo, your complaining that your STD swarm cant kill a tank with PRO modules? Standard swarm, or forge can't kill a militia either. Though I can distract them and the other 5 tanks for roughly 20 seconds. Proto Stompers Information/Wanted board Tap, Tap
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3876	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:49:00 - [7] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: sooo, your complaining that your STD swarm cant kill a tank with PRO modules? I didn't see the word PRO in the OP. Next On To-Do List: Particle Cannons
devonus durga P.L.A.N. B 218	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:54:00 - [8] - Quote Personally, I wish there was a way to make tanks pay upkeep costs if their going to remain this unassailable. AV should have a chance to destroy modules when doing damage to a tanks armor. The chance increases as their total armor decreases. This would mean tanks don't roll their unassailable death machines at no cost, and might actually allow an AV to gradually wear a tank down (if they don't recall and reorder) If your going to make dust 514 world of tanks, bring over more aspects of it. (World of tanks you tank gradually deteriotes and loses effectiveness as you receive damage) Even if it doesn't effect the core tank itself, destroying modules would still make things a BT more balanced. Now when a tank gets to half health pop hardeners and hits the fuel injector, maybe he'll discover his gtfo out of jail free card was destroyed by thatlast salvo. Proto Stompers Information/Wanted board Tap, Tap
SGT NOVA STAR Ahrendee Mercenaries 203	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:56:00 - [9] - Quote My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. VAYU! I CHOOSE YOU!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2072	Posted - 2014.01.24 14:58:00 - [10] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: sooo, your complaining that your STD swarm cant kill a tank with PRO modules? Are Proto swarms allowed to kill tanks now? "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3876	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:02:00 - [11] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. Poorly fit and operated vehicles are not bases for a credible argument. I've seem 1.6 tankers survive 5+ volleys of my Swarm Launcher and still manage to escape. I guess that means pilots were doing it wrong as well. Next On To-Do List: Particle Cannons
sabre prime The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 47	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:02:00 - [12] - Quote Maybe anti-armor should be redesigned as a seperate infantry class? That way they can have their own dropsuits with bonuses to anti-vehicle/armor weaponry. This could allow dedicated AV players to train an AV dropsuit and get the swarm launcher/forge guns/AV grenades back to a competitive level without doing a global buff to the AV weapons as they are now. Desperate attempt to get BPOs
m twiggz Pradox One Proficiency V. 277	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:13:00 - [13] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. I agree that when tanks take a good amount of damage they should be immobilized to some extent. The fact that a tank that is nearly dead can move at full speed is quite ridiculous.
SGT NOVA STAR Ahrendee Mercenaries 205	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:16:00 - [14] - Quote Atiim wrote: SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. Poorly fit and operated vehicles are not bases for a credible argument. I've seem 1.6 tankers survive 5+ volleys of my Swarm Launcher and still manage to escape. I guess that means pilots were doing it wrong as well. its not my fault all these noobs dont understand how to kill a vehicle. get a good corp, get an av group, get a tanker friend, get RE's,do something yo! my corp mates kill tanks with RE's like its no big deal. get a particle cannon. hell, get a sica with damage mods. people act like its sooo hard to kill a tank, no, YOUR making it harder for yourself. VAYU! I CHOOSE YOU!
Clone D Grundstein Automation 65	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:19:00 - [15] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. I hear you. I didn't say it was inappropriate to use other weapons for HAV take downs. Grundstein Automation
devonus durga P.L.A.N. B 224	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:22:00 - [16] - Quote m twiggz wrote: SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. I agree that when tanks take a good amount of damage they should be immobilized to some extent. The fact that a tank that is nearly dead can move at full speed is quite ridiculous. Problem with that is the mechanics issues. I believe instituting damage to tank mods might be a tad easier to achieve, and as I said, adds a bit of an upkeep cost. Proto tanks rarely go down outside PCs, brining he into pubs is basicly free money. Instituting an upkeep cost to damage received would be difficult with repairs and everything else, however having to replace a destroyed module would be an easy way to do it. Best way to make modules destroyable, besides as a random chance as a tank receives damage, is to make them targetable. Damage upgrades on turrent as a lil box or something, fuel injectors in the back, hardeners scattered across the hull. However that requires a lot of art assets, as well as upgrade to the current damage model of vehicles, so I believe a random chance that increases as hull armor decreases is the best method. On a side note, his could actually work with infantry as well Proto Stompers Information Tap (x°x) tap
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 335	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:25:00 - [17] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: its not my fault all these noobs dont understand how to kill a vehicle. get a good corp, get an av group, get a tanker friend, get RE's,do something yo! my corp mates kill tanks with RE's like its no big deal. get a particle cannon. hell, get a sica with damage mods. people act like its sooo hard to kill a tank, no, YOUR making it harder for yourself. b-b-b-but my tanks are balanced!!! dont nerf them!! i NEED my free kills!!! this guy's signature: VAYU! I CHOOSE YOU! also, you're* Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.
Clone D Grundstein Automation 65	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:26:00 - [18] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: its not my fault all these noobs dont understand how to kill a vehicle. get a good corp, get an av group, get a tanker friend, get RE's,do something yo! my corp mates kill tanks with RE's like its no big deal. get a particle cannon. hell, get a sica with damage mods. people act like its sooo hard to kill a tank, no, YOUR making it harder for yourself. Thanks for the advice. It would be better received if you did it without the hater attitude. If you have a vast world of experience to draw wisdom from, then please mentor us. Grundstein Automation
SGT NOVA STAR Ahrendee Mercenaries 206	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:45:00 - [19] - Quote Clone D wrote: SGT NOVA STAR wrote: its not my fault all these noobs dont understand how to kill a vehicle. get a good corp, get an av group, get a tanker friend, get RE's,do something yo! my corp mates kill tanks with RE's like its no big deal. get a particle cannon. hell, get a sica with damage mods. people act like its sooo hard to kill a tank, no, YOUR making it harder for yourself. Thanks for the advice. It would be better received if you did it without the hater attitude. If you have a vast world of experience to draw wisdom from, then please mentor us. communication. "he's gonna turn left on main road" "ok i'll lay down RE's, keep him busy if you can" "k his shields are down, running away now" "got 6 ready, here he comes" "now!" (((BOOM))) thats an actual convo my 2 squad mates had last night. they didn't even need my particle cannon. i also have someone in my tank call out EVERY vehicle on the field for me. never a quite second in squad comms. plus, each tanker has their own drive path, they dont realise it but they go over the same road, rock, foliage ect. multiple times a match. theres your knowledge. they attitude is from being a tanker 24/7 -_- TIGER BLOOD VAYU! I CHOOSE YOU!
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 596	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:56:00 - [20] - Quote Right now it's more profitable, faster, easier and more efficient to just summon a tank in response to enemy tanks. And you can also kill infantry. I switched over to this method completely since 1.7 since the swarm launcher has lost a lot of potency and of course, the tank just speeds away when he gets damaged, or gets out and shoots you, or he can recall his vehicle - you get the point... just put your swarm away until 1.8 and hopefully with the extra points for damaging vehicles, and perhaps some other fixes to militia tanks there should be less tank spam.

Snagman 313 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 294	Posted - 2014.01.24 16:22:00 - [21] - Quote Anti armour lucrative??? Hahahahaha!!!!! I think you're in the wrong class bud, certainly with this build. The best tactic in AV right now is mitigation IMO. Mitigate everything from the time the HAV spends on the field to your own suit costs. Make sure you build up ISK before running AV for protracted periods to mitigate your time away from AV to grind for ISK. The next build might be better for AV with WP for damage to vehicles but always be ready to breach ISK fighting a Pro tanker as sometimes all you can do is keep hammering them to keep them off your team for a few more seconds. Or get a militia SicaGÇªGÇªGÇªGÇª Did I just say that? Closed Beta AV veteran I drink because I play Dust
Clone D Grundstein Automation 66	Posted - 2014.01.24 16:44:00 - [22] - Quote Snagman 313 wrote: Anti armour lucrative??? Hahahahaha!!!!! Thanks for the confirmation. I was wondering if there was a secret that I was missing. My other classes can reap 1000+ WP consistently. I was having trouble topping 450 using anti-armor tactics. I am still open to suggestions. A team effort + time tracking vehicles = low WP. Grundstein Automation
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 294	Posted - 2014.01.24 17:11:00 - [23] - Quote To be honest the best results I have seen for guys are for your team to each carry a bit of AV gear on your usual fit, such as AV nades, Flux nades, R.Es or Proxies and then spam the living daylights out of the tank while leaving you with a decent primary to take on infantry. Dedicating fully to AV only works when there are enough guys around to keep infantry off you. But don't let it get you down bud, if you find something that works for you stick with it. Going into AV is always an uphill battle, it takes balls to go toe to toe with a vehicle that has over 3000 hp, is immune to small arms fire, has modules that can up their resistance to between 30-40%, has a main gun that can 3 shot nearly any suit, and can be piloted by a single player from the enemy team and don't get me started on module stacking. It might be a losing battle in ISK but I'm determined to win the war. Closed Beta AV veteran I drink because I play Dust
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 303	Posted - 2014.01.24 17:11:00 - [24] - Quote Clone D wrote: Thanks for the confirmation. I was wondering if there was a secret that I was missing. My other classes can reap 1000+ WP consistently. I was having trouble topping 450 using anti-armor tactics. I am still open to suggestions. A team effort + time tracking vehicles = low WP. Ding ! Ding ! Ding ! Tell him what he's won ! No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2014.01.24 17:20:00 - [25] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: My opinions - Damage to the track of a HAV should immobilize the HAV. The operator should have to get out and fix it. - Swarm launcher damage should be doubled. Currently, it's like throwing feathers at a concrete wall. ^ really? really? to much Metal Gear Solid bro. and a proto FG eats tanks alive, have you played PC against AE? nyan? i understand alot of players and only play for "fun" or with a buddy, so you dont really see the hardcore nature AV really does to tanks in top level situations. AV isn't just your swarm luancher (which btw you never see one in top pc battles) its your RE's, proxy mines, av nades ect. iv seen sicas 3 vollied by proto swarms, 2 shotted with proto FG, and tanks 1 shotted by breach FG. i hate to be the one to say it BUUUUUT, your doing it wrong. I have not seen proto forge guns eating tanks alive and the numbers show that no forge gun can one shot any tank. Don't AE and Nyain run tanks?
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2014.01.24 17:25:00 - [26] - Quote SGT NOVA STAR wrote: Clone D wrote: SGT NOVA STAR wrote: its not my fault all these noobs dont understand how to kill a vehicle. get a good corp, get an av group, get a tanker friend, get RE's,do something yo! my corp mates kill tanks with RE's like its no big deal. get a particle cannon. hell, get a sica with damage mods. people act like its sooo hard to kill a tank, no, YOUR making it harder for yourself. Thanks for the advice. It would be better received if you did it without the hater attitude. If you have a vast world of experience to draw wisdom from, then please mentor us. communication. "he's gonna turn left on main road" "ok i'll lay down RE's, keep him busy if you can" "k his shields are down, running away now" "got 6 ready, here he comes" "now!" (((BOOM))) thats an actual convo my 2 squad mates had last night. they didn't even need my particle cannon. i also have someone in my tank call out EVERY vehicle on the field for me. never a quite second in squad comms. plus, each tanker has their own drive path, they dont realise it but they go over the same road, rock, foliage ect. multiple times a match. theres your knowledge. they attitude is from being a tanker 24/7 -_- TIGER BLOOD Man, I never thought about this. Killing tanks is going to be easy peasy now. Thanks. Really, you are a tanker, I never would have guessed.
Clone D Grundstein Automation 67	Posted - 2014.01.24 18:13:00 - [27] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: Ding ! Ding ! Ding ! Tell him what he's won ! Complexity arises out of simple systems. If you build a worldview on assumptions, then you may miss hidden opportunities. Grundstein Automation
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 679	Posted - 2014.01.24 18:44:00 - [28] - Quote Clone D wrote: - If the target rounds a corner after rocket discharge, then the rockets will impact obstacles, as they are not smart enough to go around. This is incorrect.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3888	Posted - 2014.01.24 18:48:00 - [29] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Clone D wrote: - If the target rounds a corner after rocket discharge, then the rockets will impact obstacles, as they are not smart enough to go around. This is incorrect. Yes, it is correct. The Swarm Launcher AI does not have the capability to turn obstacles, or manuver around terrain in any way possible. As of 1.7. Unless you'd like to present proof otherwise. Which I know you ~~won't~~ can't. Next On To-Do List: Particle Cannons
Clone D Grundstein Automation 68	Posted - 2014.01.24 18:54:00 - [30] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Clone D wrote: - If the target rounds a corner after rocket discharge, then the rockets will impact obstacles, as they are not smart enough to go around. This is incorrect. Then my eyes deceive me. Has anyone else noticed this? I am familiar with the technique of locking on and aiming away to adjust flight path to avoid obstacles. I have witnessed rockets detonating on bunkers and berms as the vehicle changed course to flee. Grundstein Automation

Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 386	Posted - 2014.01.24 19:34:00 - [31] - Quote ok, time to settle this from an AV vet who's killed about ever major tanker in this game at one point or another from some form of AV. From my very limited experience in 1.7; AV in general seems to be massively underpowered in some form (aside from maybe the FG). Unless things have changed, most tankers are armor tankers, thusly making the Swarm the best against them into armor, and the FG best "overall" (less penalty toward shield but less bonus to armor). Can do on and on, but whatever... To the payoff part of this topic; AV has NEVER been a payoff unless you killed a LOT of tanks and didn't die. From memory, I'd say the largest payout I've had in a pub game (as that payout model hasn't changed much; as it differs from all other payout models I believe) was something toward 800k. Reason for it was b/c back then it was a 4man squad of us IMP against a STB/Eclipses-corp 8 man squad; in which they pulled something like 10 tanks in which at least 1/2 were Surya's. So will lots and lots of AV by us we destroyed all there tanks giving a nice big payout. However in the current build w/ AV being weaker and tankers being both stronger and faster, it gives you less $$ for your time spent doing your "job". One way can see this being changed is, that when a vehicle is destroyed everyone who does ANY damage to get is rewarded with 50% of what the vehicle costs (ex: total cost of everyone on it was 700k, each player who dealt damage to it would be rewarded w/ 350k). As in my opinion AV should be considered a high risk-high reward situation. You more or less "actively" seek out vehicles and destroy them. In doing so you become targets from those vehicles as well as being greatly underpowered against regular infantry (unless your a commando then still yr semi underpowered b/c of the suit itself, even though have 2 light weapons). So overally, yes AV has little reward unless you give aid to the destruction of a lot of tanks. Can always go into more depth of AV cost/benefits of AV against vehicles....


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