DUST Search - Basic Frames, Again

Reav Hannari wrote:

el OPERATOR wrote:

Well, if I'm behind about a CCP hotfix, then what I've said ISK-wise isn't accurate. The Basics were cheaper until PROTO last I looked a few months back because of a similiar thread. SP-wise tho they are still cheaper to get into (HALF the SP), thereby freeing up time to generate the ISK to pay for them. Until the user decides to specialize and use the ISK cheaper, but SP more expensive suits.

Still, though. Not Broken or Unfair or Illogical or Wasteful or.....(?).

It is illogical. Why would anyone take a basic frame to level 5 and spend 1.2 million SP to do that when they can switch over at level 3 and spend those points to get to level 3 in a specialized suit?

Because they can't make up their minds? That's weak.

I started this thread to generate ideas on how to make basic frame suits and skills more useful. Most of us agree that they are just a stepping stone, an SP sink and a waste of ISK to continue using for most cases. I don't understand why you are arguing that they are fine as they are today.

Open-Beta Vet.
NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.

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Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2719	Posted - 2014.01.22 17:28:00 - [1] - Quote It's becoming clear that CCP isn't doing a vehicle style overhaul to dropsuits. The skill tree is staying the same and we aren't experiencing a tiericide. So today's question is... How would you make basic frames useful and interesting? I don't like skills that unlock other skills or tiers of equipment without providing some form of bonus. I'd like to see the basic frame skills provide some form of bonus to both the basic frames and the specialized versions built on those frames. For example, Minmatar Medium Frame could reduce shield recharge delay by 2% per level on both basic, assault and logistics suits. This would encourage training it to 5 and support the hit and run tactics of the Minmatar. So many possibilities for each race and frame size. I think the current pricing situation discourages any use of basic frames once you can unlock the specialized suit. It should provide an economical fallback from the more advanced frames. Yes, they take less SP to unlock. I think that's a crappy excuse. They should be cheaper all around because they have less capability. The medium basic frames seem to be the assault frames without skill bonuses. How can they be better differentiated from the specialized frames? I've seen one suggestion that all of them carry two equipment slots. That would make them a weak cross between both assault and logistics and open up some interesting possibilities for the secondary roles, such as sniping, anti-vehicle, and pilot. I use my Skinweave Minmatar Medium for piloting specifically for the cheap price and the two equipment slots: uplinks and vehicle repair. How could the basic light frame be made useful? The basic heavy? We will have 36 suits on the market that currently serve as mostly a short lived stepping stone on the way to specialized suits. Some use the Amarr basic heavy due to weaknesses in the Sentinal but that should change once 1.8 ships. How can we leverage these existing assets and SP sinks to add diversity to the game? Thoughts? // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
mollerz Minja Scouts 2081	Posted - 2014.01.22 17:50:00 - [2] - Quote Well put! You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2721	Posted - 2014.01.22 17:52:00 - [3] - Quote mollerz wrote: Well put! Thanks! Any ideas on basic frame bonuses? The more well thought out this is the easier it'll be to talk CCP into at least reading them. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8307	Posted - 2014.01.22 17:57:00 - [4] - Quote +1 Also, I really hate the "it takes less SP" excuse to make it more expensive. Basic dropships take less SP than assault dropships, yet assault dropships are still way more expensive. If something is better, it should cost more, even if it takes more SP. We really do need a bonus to justify having 5 levels to the basic frame skill. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
el OPERATOR Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2014.01.22 18:31:00 - [5] - Quote Basic suits are one of the few actually well-balanced aspects of DUST, IMO. I run Minmatar basic mediums fairly often and have done so since Uprising. Yes, the balance to them is that they cost less SP wise and ISK wise (until compared to PROTO level Assault). But, thats a fair balance! I'll gladly take an added bonus, if one were to fall from the sky, but that Basic frames "need" a bonus to compensate for a supposed "lack" in capability, I just don't see the reasoning, outside of, "Well everything else has a bonus". Downplaying the impact of accessing viable suits for half the SP sink does not reduce said impact KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: +1 36 is way too many suits not to have a purpose. They all just become obsolete after unlocking specialized ones. Also, I really hate the "it takes less SP" excuse to make it more expensive. Basic dropships take less SP than assault dropships, yet assault dropships are still way more expensive. If something is better, it should cost more, even if it takes more SP. We really do need a bonus to justify having 5 levels to the basic frame skill. Thing is, the specialized fits are more expensive, until PROTO. And maybe, just maybe, Basics price higher w/out a bonus to entice individuals who are considering going PROTOBasic to actually specialize in the suit and not go SuperTourist about it. The specialized suits ARE better, and they DO cost more. Open-Beta Vet. NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1110	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:03:00 - [6] - Quote let's hope something changes about the basic suits. they're useless right now.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 896	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote no suit bonuses. Give it 2 equipment slots. Half the SP for Proto.
el OPERATOR Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:13:00 - [8] - Quote Adding an equipment slot would make my day! XD They are already half the SP, which has been my personal point about basic suits all along. Open-Beta Vet. NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 897	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:22:00 - [9] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adding an equipment slot would make my day! XD They are already half the SP, which has been my personal point about basic suits all along. Still to take it to a dead end tree at lvl 5.. would be just for the suit. and an extra equipment slot makes the suit functional but not worth the Skill point cost. Why invest into lvl 4 and 5 of the skill just for the suit when you could invest that SP into working on your specialization? Only way i could see it a worth while investment is make it something even a 1-3 month old player could get into asap and be functional in most roles. Aswell as giving an option for a cost effective side train for a vet player to finish off lvl 4 and 5 of the tree.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8312	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:38:00 - [10] - Quote Fix them! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

el OPERATOR Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2014.01.22 20:02:00 - [11] - Quote Bethhy wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adding an equipment slot would make my day! XD They are already half the SP, which has been my personal point about basic suits all along. Still to take it to a dead end tree at lvl 5.. would be just for the suit. and an extra equipment slot makes the suit functional but not worth the Skill point cost. Why invest into lvl 4 and 5 of the skill just for the suit when you could invest that SP into working on your specialization? Only way i could see it a worth while investment is make it something even a 1-3 month old player could get into asap and be functional in most roles. Aswell as giving an option for a cost effective side train for a vet player to finish off lvl 4 and 5 of the tree. I personally would actually take my MinMedBasic suit to proto if that gave the suit an extra equipment slot. 2 equipments and all the base stats of the PROTO Assault would = a very combat flexible suit. Open-Beta Vet. NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2736	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:21:00 - [12] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Thing is, the specialized fits are more expensive, until PROTO. And maybe, just maybe, Basics price higher w/out a bonus to entice individuals who are considering going PROTOBasic to actually specialize in the suit and not go SuperTourist about it. The specialized suits ARE better, and they DO cost more. I just went through all the suits comparing basic to the specialized versions. The only case where any specialized suit cost more than the basic frame was prototype commando. All the others the specialized is significantly cheaper. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
el OPERATOR Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:30:00 - [13] - Quote Well, if I'm behind about a CCP hotfix, then what I've said ISK-wise isn't accurate. The Basics were cheaper until PROTO last I looked a few months back because of a similiar thread. SP-wise tho they are still cheaper to get into (HALF the SP), thereby freeing up time to generate the ISK to pay for them. Until the user decides to specialize and use the ISK cheaper, but SP more expensive suits. Still, though. Not Broken or Unfair or Illogical or Wasteful or.....(?). Open-Beta Vet. NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 4112	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:35:00 - [14] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Thing is, the specialized fits are more expensive, until PROTO. And maybe, just maybe, Basics price higher w/out a bonus to entice individuals who are considering going PROTOBasic to actually specialize in the suit and not go SuperTourist about it. The specialized suits ARE better, and they DO cost more. I just went through all the suits comparing basic to the specialized versions. The only case where any specialized suit cost more than the basic frame was prototype commando. All the others the specialized is significantly cheaper. Which, as an EvE noob, I can say is extremely strange for them to be cheaper. The skill requirement of 3 rather than 5 is head scratching as well, just reduces the risk of going into a chosen class. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 4 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 355	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:47:00 - [15] - Quote Yes. Please give the SP I put into Basic Frames a use. Currently it is the only thing I regret skilling into in this game. "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Leo Look Shadow Company HQ 46	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:47:00 - [16] - Quote Bethhy wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adding an equipment slot would make my day! XD They are already half the SP, which has been my personal point about basic suits all along. Still to take it to a dead end tree at lvl 5.. would be just for the suit. and an extra equipment slot makes the suit functional but not worth the Skill point cost. Why invest into lvl 4 and 5 of the skill just for the suit when you could invest that SP into working on your specialization? Only way i could see it a worth while investment is make it something even a 1-3 month old player could get into asap and be functional in most roles. Aswell as giving an option for a cost effective side train for a vet player to finish off lvl 4 and 5 of the tree. yes level 4 and 5 is useless but when we came out of beta we had to level to 5 basic to then move onto the role suits since that has been removed it be nice to get rid of level 4 and 5 and give back the SP we old timers put into it but I don't see CCP doing that ever
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2738	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:48:00 - [17] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Well, if I'm behind about a CCP hotfix, then what I've said ISK-wise isn't accurate. The Basics were cheaper until PROTO last I looked a few months back because of a similiar thread. SP-wise tho they are still cheaper to get into (HALF the SP), thereby freeing up time to generate the ISK to pay for them. Until the user decides to specialize and use the ISK cheaper, but SP more expensive suits. Still, though. Not Broken or Unfair or Illogical or Wasteful or.....(?). It is illogical. Why would anyone take a basic frame to level 5 and spend 1.2 million SP to do that when they can switch over at level 3 and spend those points to get to level 3 in a specialized suit? Because they can't make up their minds? That's weak. I started this thread to generate ideas on how to make basic frame suits and skills more useful. Most of us agree that they are just a stepping stone, an SP sink and a waste of ISK to continue using for most cases. I don't understand why you are arguing that they are fine as they are today. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2740	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:50:00 - [18] - Quote Leo Look wrote: yes level 4 and 5 is useless but when we came out of beta we had to level to 5 basic to then move onto the role suits since that has been removed it be nice to get rid of level 4 and 5 and give back the SP we old timers put into it but I don't see CCP doing that ever I have two basic frames to 5 as well. I didn't feel the need to respec back when we had the opportunity and I'd rather CCP make them useful than take them away. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3919	Posted - 2014.01.22 22:56:00 - [19] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Thoughts? Well IMO what would make Basic frames a good option even while using them vs the Specialized ones would be: GÖª Cheaper ISK Price in comparison to their ROLE oriented counterpart GÖª Better Base Stats Example of Cheaper ISK price: The MINMATAR BASIC Mk.0 vs The Scout Mk.0= BASIC Mk.0 : 40k ISK Scout Mk.0 : 57k ISK Example of better base stats: a Minmatar Basic Light frame wouldnt have the Profile dampening + Nova Knife Bonus the Minmatar SCOUT has, but instead would have: Shields: 150 Armor:90 Armor rep Rate: 1 Max Stamina: 250 NOW another example: Amarr Ak.0 Vs Amarr Medium frame Ak.0 The amarr AK.0 gets the bonuses But The AMarr Med Frame Ak.0 has: 200 Armor 200 Shields 230 Stamina 30 Shield regen Now.Not only you could use Basic frames with the SAME Fittings as you do with your Role specific version but they would have greater BASE STATS. This means , its a trade: Less ISK Price,less SP Spent and MORE Base Stats OR BONUSES (which are what make each role specialized) GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
el OPERATOR Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2014.01.22 23:09:00 - [20] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Well, if I'm behind about a CCP hotfix, then what I've said ISK-wise isn't accurate. The Basics were cheaper until PROTO last I looked a few months back because of a similiar thread. SP-wise tho they are still cheaper to get into (HALF the SP), thereby freeing up time to generate the ISK to pay for them. Until the user decides to specialize and use the ISK cheaper, but SP more expensive suits. Still, though. Not Broken or Unfair or Illogical or Wasteful or.....(?). It is illogical. Why would anyone take a basic frame to level 5 and spend 1.2 million SP to do that when they can switch over at level 3 and spend those points to get to level 3 in a specialized suit? Because they can't make up their minds? That's weak. I started this thread to generate ideas on how to make basic frame suits and skills more useful. Most of us agree that they are just a stepping stone, an SP sink and a waste of ISK to continue using for most cases. I don't understand why you are arguing that they are fine as they are today. I would have to assume that a post-beta player who puts his SP into PROTOing Basic suits does so because he/she then gets a PROTO assault spec'd suit, for HALF the SP investment. Which would be a clear decision, use less SP on the suit so that more can be used elsewhere, like a weapon or mods or w/e. As far as making them "more useful" they're as "useful" as anything one could consider 'basic' is going to be! I'm obviously in the minority on recognizing the value of the HALF SP part of the price, whaddya want for half the SP?? The things are statistically balanced, compared to the rest of the suits and completely viable on the battlefield!! They are that stepping-stone between the (STARTER) suits and the Specialties, no doubt. That is the role, That is the purpose, That is the use. Want more? Wear them in pubs and boost your ISK payout vs. all the ADV/PROTO cosplayers in there. Open-Beta Vet. NPC Corp Independent Contractor. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original.



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