*Grabs Popcorn*

AV was far from "fine" when proto swarms wipe out your 6,000 armor tank in two volleys, something sure as hell isn't right.

It wasn't all fine when HAVs could passive tank huge amounts of damage long ago or pre 1.7 when they couldn't survive a lone swarm launcher.

Passive tanking led to pretty much an either/or situation. Either they could tank enough damage to be useful in which case they could last forever, or they could be destroyed pretty quickly. There might be a middle ground in there, but the line is so thin that it's near impossible to find and easy to fall off.

So CCP decided to try something different. Forget trying to balance passive tank and switch instead to active tanking to create a "Waves of opportunity" model instead. Now vehicles could be both strong enough to be feared and also weak enough to be easily killed, just at different points in time.

Did they get it right on the first pass? Of course not. Did anyone really expect them to?

This is a complete change of direction and will require quite a bit of time and development to balance. CCP will need to release content not yet developed, like webifiers and eWar. They will need to adjust AV, probably multiple times.

The change has sent V/AV balancing back to square one. It would benefit hugely from a test server but we don't have one. That means a greatly drawn out development cycle that is difficult to deal with for a "released" game, but that's what we have.

We can't change any of that, but we can change our own expectations. You will be much less frustrated if you admit to yourself that this isn't final, it isn't nearly final, and in fact is an early beta. It's going to change and it's likely to be a year or more before we find a balance that most can agree with.

Lol no that's why they lowered the swarm launcher's max range, after a certain distance they would turn invisible, not to mention the occasional unnatural corner turn. The whole militia tanks and their modules need to be reworked, as you previously said they take no sp as opposed to 1.6 where only the well fitted and intelligent tankers managed to survive.

*Grabs Popcorn*

Please Atiim? tell me that these points are not valid? they hold weight., and most of them are true. Its unbelievable what I'm seeing. This community is divided beyond belief. counter argument me I want to see your side?

Lol no that's why they lowered the swarm launcher's max range, after a certain distance they would turn invisible, not to mention the occasional unnatural corner turn. The whole militia tanks and their modules need to be reworked, as you previously said they take no sp as opposed to 1.6 where only the well fitted and intelligent tankers managed to survive.

AV was far from "fine" when proto swarms wipe out your 6,000 armor tank in two volleys, something sure as hell isn't right.

Simply nerfing MLT modules will do almost nothing but remove the only consistent counter to experienced vehicle pilots.

As for that last statement, what was the problem with this? Only the well fitted and intelligent tankers should survive. If you are inexperienced and have a poorly fit vehicle, experienced AV should put down like a mad dog when you are piloting.

"The best rivals the best, and only the best."

Simply nerfing MLT modules will do almost nothing but remove the only consistent counter to experienced vehicle pilots.

As for that last statement, what was the problem with this? Only the well fitted and intelligent tankers should survive. If you are inexperienced and have a poorly fit vehicle, experienced AV should put down like a mad dog when you are piloting.

"The best rivals the best, and only the best."

Yeah, I'am completely against only nerfing militia tanks as they are the only viable counter.

Either buff my swarms or refund my SP.

I agree with this statement by Atiim. The last statement of Hired Pinp I must have misread. Thinking that he was agreeing with me, I guess not? I believe they should just have released the PRO variants of vehicles. & took another look at AV. Not change things so dramatically and over simplified everything.

simple minded bads like you always think shallow.......

AV was far from "fine" when proto swarms wipe out your 6,000 armor tank in two volleys, something sure as hell isn't right.

Says the pilot.

[quote=Aizen Intiki
simple minded bads like you always think shallow.......

Well, Chrome balance was decent. 3 proto AV could kill the best tanks.

Requiring 3 people to destroy 1 person is imbalanced.

Have you ever played a game of Rock, Paper Scissors where your opponent draws rock and you draw paper; just to lose simply because there wasn't enough 'papers' to counter said 'rock'?

1-1.6 was bad. 1 proto av could solo the best tanks

1.6 was bad, but not because of this reason. Why shouldn't the best of AV solo the best of tanks? They are both 1 individual unit.

1.7 as just as bad with 6 proto AV not being able to kill the best tanks.

Binding an entire squad to destroy 1 tanker is both overkill and imbalanced. Agreed

Hardeners need fitting requirements increased so only a proto tank can stack 3.

I believe that we should have different hardeners for different vehicle times (Similar to Vehicle Repair Modules). Then we can adjust fitting requirements accordingly.

However, no vehicle should be able to stack hardeners. It breaks the "waves of opportunity" philosophy that CCP have instilled into vehicles.

In layman's terms: "AV has to wait their turn. Why shouldn't you?"

AV needs a moderate boost. Swarms need their range lock to 300m and forges need the previous charge times returned. Both could stand a 12% damage buff.

Waves of opportunity work only if tanks can be 1-2hkd when hardeners are off which is not the case.

300m seems a little game breaking. Agreed on the other parts.

And while we are at it, can someone please buff Plasma Cannons?

True tankers still **** militia tank scrubs all day but more to do with tactics than gear. A mlt tank should not be able to fit more than 1 hardener. A std should have to sacrifice a good turret to fit two. ADV tanks should be able to fit 2 and a good turret, and proto should be able to fit basically anything they want, but cost 3 million isk (2x120 plates, light rep, 3 hardeners, nitrous, damage mod. Lol)

Nothing should be able to fit more than one hardener. Though as opposed to a CPU/PG nerf to MLT vehicles, why not require turrets to be filled?

That PRO HAV fit is/would be overpowered. No amount of ISK/SP could justify it.

However, we desperately need gunships that can fit large turrets. That in itself would be the ultimate counter to rail snipers.

It would have to take serious cuts to speed and mobility. Otherwise you would just create a flying tank.

AV was far from "fine" when proto swarms wipe out your 6,000 armor tank in two volleys, something sure as hell isn't right.

This is a joke right?

Swarm Launchers are meant to completely annihilate armored vehicles.

That's like a person in a Gallente suit complaining about Mass Drivers, or a Minmatar suit user complaining about Scrambler Rifles.