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Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
937
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Around 43% of its base HP is dedicated to Shields, something that isn't going to be fully restored in most matches. The Amarr Heavy easily surpassed the Gallente for having the second High Slot for a Shield energizer and fully utilizing the racial bonuses. The 4 Low slots on the Gallente doesn't make it special with the Amarr already having higher base armor as if it has an imaginary plate on imaginary 4th low slot. Lastly, the 1 HP Armor regen for a HEAVY is meaningless considering the amount of Armor the Gallente has, yet the Scout gets 3 HP regen. To improve the Gallente it would be Ideal for it to use the following stats:
Shield: 235 HP Armor: 680 HP, If you all still prefer the Amarr to be a true Armor tanker then I suppose we could leave the Gallente as a cripple Heal Armor Rate: 3 HP
On the Caldari Heavy it's somewhat ok for the Armor to take 43% of total HP as it is a secondary HP layer. The high shield regen and 4 High slots helps prevent the Caldari from going down on Armor frequently so adding a Complex Armor Repair may be enough to keep the Heavy alive. A slight improvement for the Caldari would be to utilize the following stats:
Shield: 580 HP Armor: 335 HP
The Minmatar Heavy will be interesting to see in combat though I'm not sure if it will be as effective as the Minmatar Assault.
Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1!
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843-BANE
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
330
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
As a true Gallente looking forward to this heavy I'll certainly agree with you.
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Beck Weathers
Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance
345
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
I could go for 3 hp/s but the rest of the Gal heavy is fine. I still plan on skilling into proto sentinal day 1 of 1.8 |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
5774
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
3hp/s for ALL Gallente!
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
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Valmorgan Aubaris
Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services ACME Holding Conglomerate
207
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Resists could be the great equalizer. I don't see them mentioned yet.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1069
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote: The Minmatar Heavy will be interesting to see in combat though I'm not sure if it will be as effective as the Minmatar Assault.
do the math and compare the following fits:
gallente sentinel with 3 complex plates + complex shield extender + kin cat minmatar with 2 complex plates + 3 complex shield extenders
gallente fit sprints as fast as the minmatar fit but still has more EHP, not to mention that it works better with remote repping logi. which heavy suit is again a dissapointment now? |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
939
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Alldin Kan wrote: The Minmatar Heavy will be interesting to see in combat though I'm not sure if it will be as effective as the Minmatar Assault.
do the math and compare the following fits: gallente sentinel with 3 complex plates + complex shield extender + kin cat minmatar with 2 complex plates + 3 complex shield extenders gallente fit sprints as fast as the minmatar fit but still has more EHP, not to mention that it works better with remote repping logi. which heavy suit is again a dissapointment now? I will not describe the flaw in this comment.
Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1!
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1678
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Come oon the gal heavy defiantly gets an inherent proficiency lvl 5 when it reaches proto that thing in the gallente research facility will put tears to any frame.
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Shiruba Ryou
142
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:Around 43% of its base HP is dedicated to Shields, something that isn't going to be fully restored in most matches. The Amarr Heavy easily surpassed the Gallente for having the second High Slot for a Shield energizer and fully utilizing the racial bonuses. The 4 Low slots on the Gallente doesn't make it special with the Amarr already having higher base armor as if it has an imaginary plate on imaginary 4th low slot. Lastly, the 1 HP Armor regen for a HEAVY is meaningless considering the amount of Armor the Gallente has, yet the Scout gets 3 HP regen. To improve the Gallente it would be Ideal for it to use the following stats:
Shield: 235 HP Armor: 680 HP, If you all still prefer the Amarr to be a true Armor tanker then I suppose we could leave the Gallente as a cripple Heal Armor Rate: 3 HP
On the Caldari Heavy it's somewhat ok for the Armor to take 43% of total HP as it is a secondary HP layer. The high shield regen and 4 High slots helps prevent the Caldari from going down on Armor frequently so adding a Complex Armor Repair may be enough to keep the Heavy alive. A slight improvement for the Caldari would be to utilize the following stats:
Shield: 580 HP Armor: 335 HP
The Minmatar Heavy will be interesting to see in combat though I'm not sure if it will be as effective as the Minmatar Assault.
Aren't the increased low slots for stacking armor repairers? Gallente are active tankers not Buffer tankers like the amarr remember.
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
939
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shiruba Ryou wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:Around 43% of its base HP is dedicated to Shields, something that isn't going to be fully restored in most matches. The Amarr Heavy easily surpassed the Gallente for having the second High Slot for a Shield energizer and fully utilizing the racial bonuses. The 4 Low slots on the Gallente doesn't make it special with the Amarr already having higher base armor as if it has an imaginary plate on imaginary 4th low slot. Lastly, the 1 HP Armor regen for a HEAVY is meaningless considering the amount of Armor the Gallente has, yet the Scout gets 3 HP regen. Aren't the increased low slots for stacking armor repairers? Gallente are active tankers not Buffer tankers like the amarr remember. Read the OP again.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
885
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
base armor repair at 3 hp a sec makes sense....
My Minmatar Assault that I have had since Uprising 1.0 with its 1HP/Sec and with 150ish armor is very negligible and barely feels adequate for that small health pool, Let alone health pools ranging from 600-1k+. |
Grand Master Kubo
PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives
24
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Low slots are for biotics. The Gallente Heavy = Fastest Heavy.
- Kubo |
DR FEB
DARKSTAR ARMY
141
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Posted - 2014.01.20 16:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
meh... more qq coming up
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Deltahawk Durango
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
24
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
even though i stick with amarr suit, those resistance bonuses on gallente look pretty nice... just sayin' |
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
885
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Deltahawk Durango wrote:even though i stick with amarr suit, those resistance bonuses on gallente look pretty nice... just sayin'
Same as the Amarr but flipped around? |
Komodo Jones
Chaotik Serenity
349
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fair, but I'm guessing it will still look sexy and be fun to use :D
But yeah on every other suit amarr armor has been basically on par with gallente I don't see why this shouldn't be the case now, still also remember that the proportion of base shields to armor on gallente suits are never as severe as 200-600, shields are always at least 1/3 of the total health. Though this could work out well because gallente will have armor resistance vs almost all types of weaponry, I've always considered shields to be a big buffer anyway. I'd be fine with the armor being brought up to about 580 and the shields lowered a little.
Now at first I didn't realize that the heavy or scout was getting passive armor repairing, is the same true for assaults and logies? I'm ok if not but if my gallente logi will be getting passive armor repair again then hooray!
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Auris Lionesse
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
64
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Galente and Caldari should both get passive reps imo Give amarr high resistances and min has logis. |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1632
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:Around 43% of its base HP is dedicated to Shields, something that isn't going to be fully restored in most matches. The Amarr Heavy easily surpassed the Gallente for having the second High Slot for a Shield energizer and fully utilizing the racial bonuses. The 4 Low slots on the Gallente doesn't make it special with the Amarr already having higher base armor as if it has an imaginary plate on imaginary 4th low slot. Lastly, the 1 HP Armor regen for a HEAVY is meaningless considering the amount of Armor the Gallente has, yet the Scout gets 3 HP regen. To improve the Gallente it would be Ideal for it to use the following stats:
Shield: 235 HP Armor: 680 HP, If you all still prefer the Amarr to be a true Armor tanker then I suppose we could leave the Gallente as a cripple Heal Armor Rate: 3 HP
On the Caldari Heavy it's somewhat ok for the Armor to take 43% of total HP as it is a secondary HP layer. The high shield regen and 4 High slots helps prevent the Caldari from going down on Armor frequently so adding a Complex Armor Repair may be enough to keep the Heavy alive. A slight improvement for the Caldari would be to utilize the following stats:
Shield: 580 HP Armor: 335 HP
The Minmatar Heavy will be interesting to see in combat though I'm not sure if it will be as effective as the Minmatar Assault.
The Gallente heavy is made for armor repair. Pop some armor reppers in there. That's why it has lower base HP and has 4 low slots.
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Yelhsa Jin-Mao
TheLostLegion
247
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Come oon the gal heavy defiantly gets an inherent proficiency lvl 5 when it reaches proto that thing in the gallente research facility will put tears to any frame.
One remote explosive on my Gallente scout suit should see to that.
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
5599
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
I definitely agree that more of the Gallente Sentinel's HP should be in armor and more of the Caldari Sentinel's HP should be in shield. They are both pretty much dual tankers as it stands right now.
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CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3262
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Scouts have the highest shield regen values in the game. There's a philosophy of "Lower hp" but also "fast recovery". The 3 hp/s armor regen on the Gallente scout seems to be an effort to apply the "faster regen on a scout" theory to the armor-tanking-race scout without costing them slot. That's the justification I think - that the suit that's meant to be quick on the recovery because of the nature of their playstyle needs a higher bonus. A higher bonus on a heavy-suit negates the need for a logi.
Giving all the Gallente suits a repair bonus is just a little bonus though I think, I don't think it's meant to replace a module necessarily. This is similar to the Minmatar suits have the 1 hp/s regen before. Kinda like the Amarr hp bonus is less than that of a module, or the Minmatar scout's hacking bonus is less than that of a module.
The Amarr have shifted from purely dual-tanked to Armor-focused in the most recent numbers. However, the difference/trend is for the Amarr to be slower in movement with more innate suit armor, while the Gallente are in theory "the fast repairing" guys with high armor... but no speed penalty.
That said, I'd see no problem with making the shield values on the Amarr and Gallente even, and moving those 30 hp from the shield to the armor on the Gallente:
360 Shields 555 Armor
Amarr and Gallente then have even shields. The ehp is the same, there only remains a raw ehp difference of 45hp. This fits with the "less than a module" style advantage considering there is no armor plate that gives you 45hp with a 5% speed hit (The Amarr Sentinel is 5% slower than the Caldari/Gallente).
The current Gallente Sentinel's armor has the bonus of getting resists to both Projectile and Rail weapons (the two with armor bonuses) and Sentinels all receive splash damage resists, which should help somewhat with grenades, MD, etc. In contrast, the Amarr armor bonuses are dual tanked, giving the "armor" part of their suit less protection.
The extra low slot can compensate for the hp difference, but it can also go towards reppers (which is supposed to be more of a Gallente thing). Their armor is meant to be "better", not thicker. It's higher-tech - it repairs itself and has more resists than the Amarr version. The Amarr is meant to be more raw hp out of the box, and slanted towards armor.. since that's what's making them heavier in theory. An adjustment so the Gallente doesn't have higher shields than the Amarr is sensible enough though.
Basically, I'd be fine with a small adjustment to the shield/armor totals, but the hp regen is situated for different reasons I think.
Edit: It should be noted that the Amarr Scout also has the lowest shields of any scout (60), so that may just be part of the newer racial paradigm. The Amarr suck at high tech, they put heavy heavy plates on everything instead. Thus, they have lower shields on the Sentinel, but thicker armor. The Amarr Commando also has the lowest shields... and the Amarr Comm. doesn't have any overall ehp advantage either.
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Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
605
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Actually, 3hp/s is still pretty useless on a heavy. Try 8 or something. |
Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
1269
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
The armor resistances will make it harder to tear through even without shields makes it easier for rep tools to keep pace with damage taken. It's slot layout doesn't lend too well shields, but the 4 lows means it can go for more speed, built in repair, or mega armor tank.
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4498
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Posted - 2014.01.20 18:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:3hp/s for ALL Gallente! I wouldn't oppose 5. Gallente are supposed to have regen to make up for having less hitpoints.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3263
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cat Merc wrote:3hp/s for ALL Gallente! I wouldn't oppose 5. Gallente are supposed to have regen to make up for having less hitpoints.
5 hp/s (a complex repper) is a bit much compared to the Amarr's 45 hp advantage/5% speed hit (they don't make a plate or shield module that crappy). If the Gallente get a complex repper, the Amarr need a Complex plate's worth of hp difference (90 more hp).. the speed difference can stay at 5%.
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MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
783
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think IWS explained it pretty good and the suit designs seem to reflect his explanations well. 1h/p a second might not seem like much but when you have armor repair maxed out it will probably turn into 3. combine that with 4 complex reppers and you're looking at over 25 h/p regen a second.
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Centurion mkII
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
192
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
MassiveNine wrote:I think IWS explained it pretty good and the suit designs seem to reflect his explanations well. 1h/p a second might not seem like much but when you have armor repair maxed out it will probably turn into 3. combine that with 4 complex reppers and you're looking at over 25 h/p regen a second.
How will it turn into 3? 1 x 1.25 is 1.25. |
Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1446
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Comparing heavy fighting heavy, the Amarr HMG Sentinel > all other heavies.
But given the current FOTM of rail and combat rifles, the Gallente heavy has the best bonuses for dealing with medium frames. I hope you dedicated fatties can interpret the numbers enough to see that.
Now, if they introduce new heavy weapons in the game or rebalance assault rifles that will all change, but those are BIG ifsGǪ
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MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
785
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Centurion mkII wrote:MassiveNine wrote:I think IWS explained it pretty good and the suit designs seem to reflect his explanations well. 1h/p a second might not seem like much but when you have armor repair maxed out it will probably turn into 3. combine that with 4 complex reppers and you're looking at over 25 h/p regen a second. How will it turn into 3? 1 x 1.25 is 1.25.
Sorry. Math defeats me honestly so I guessed a bit. Either way, 4 complex reppers with the skill bonus gives you 25 hp rep a second so 26.25 a second. So with roughly 600 armor it only takes around 24 seconds before you're fully healed.
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MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
785
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Posted - 2014.01.20 19:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Comparing heavy fighting heavy, the Amarr HMG Sentinel > all other heavies.
But given the current FOTM of rail and combat rifles, the Gallente heavy has the best bonuses for dealing with medium frames. I hope you dedicated fatties can interpret the numbers enough to see that.
Now, if they introduce new heavy weapons in the game or rebalance assault rifles that will all change, but those are BIG ifsGǪ
It is going to be a good fight between the gallente and amarr. Given the slightly higher shield on the gallente, it might take a little longer for the amarr to get through the shield while the gallente is already doing damage to armor. I think gallente will be the more lone wolf type heavy that doesn't really need a logi to survive while the amarr becomes unstoppable with a logi behind him.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
995
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Posted - 2014.01.20 20:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cat Merc wrote:3hp/s for ALL Gallente! I wouldn't oppose 5. Gallente are supposed to have regen to make up for having less hitpoints. 5 hp/s (a complex repper) is a bit much compared to the Amarr's 45 hp advantage/5% speed hit (they don't make a plate or shield module that crappy). If the Gallente get a complex repper, the Amarr need a Complex plate's worth of hp difference (90 more hp).. the speed difference can stay at 5%.
I agree with most of what you said in your long post, but there are devaluation factors that I think that you are not taking into account.
First of all, where are you getting this "45 HP armor difference" from? The armor difference between the two sentinels is Amarr 600 and Gallente 525. That make the actual "bonus" a 75 HP difference. Aside form this, you did factor skill augmentation into your analysis. While there is no skill to increase the base armor regen stat, there is one the increases base armor HP: +25%. If we factor this in the actual armor HP "bonus" for the Amarr sentinel comes out to be 93.75 HP. That is more than a basic plate's worth of armor HP an more than 1/3 on its way to enhanced.
Now, the speed "penalty" difference between the two suits vs. an inherent regen for the Gallente suit, is a different story. This has to do with function and utility, which is a mechanic design that players should be deciding on, as to which one they think will Benefit their approach to their use of the suit. 5% slower could really be a nonfactor to someone who is willing to sacrifice that speed for the extra tank and a logi constantly on their back, in well organized team play.
The Gallente suit stricks me more as a lonewolf's heavy, for as much as a Heavy can be a lonewolf (let's say more independent at the very least).
Considering the above, independence comes at a higher cost than codependence, things could go very wrong. At the very least the Gallente heavy should get an enherent armor regen of 2.35 as to match the difference between the extra armor of the Amarr, seeing as how we are gauging this by module tier, however, in the spirit of fostering independence over codependence (where it is more needed) I would say that an HP regen value of 3 would be just fine.
I did enjoy you long post, and agreed with many of the thing you said, I just think that many of your facts were inaccurate and some of your reasoning was flawed.
Anyway, that's my view
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
2896
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Posted - 2014.01.20 20:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Get the Amarr heavy then.
No.
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