DUST Search - [FEEDBACK] Plasma Cannon - An AV perspective from a PLC advocate.

Fizzer94 wrote:

XxGhazbaranxX wrote:

Fizzer94 wrote:

You have to remember that after a certain point, increasing its direct damage has no affect on infantry, because it will always be a OHK(which isn't unbalanced, considering the difficulty of direct hits). Giving it comparable DPS to prenerf Swarms(perhaps a bit more,to compensate for skill requirements) would allow it to successfully be used as an AV weapon, but its AP uses would remain unaffected.

You are completely correct but he was talking about added splash radius. I think everyne agrees that direct damage needs to be buffed and splash should stay the same but it's to what extent should direct damage be buffed. Due to difficulty of use and rate of fire the plasma cannon deserves a damage increase to the same levels of the breach for gun since its very difficult to get more than one shot in a row on a vehicle that is running away. But as I said before, with the mobility of scouts, if kept in the light weaponry section, the weapon would be too powerful if not overpowered.

I personally think is should do more damage than a breach FG, considering the at the FG can reach out further, and its projectile flies in a much more... favorable path. The Plasma Cannon practically requires the user to be up close and personal with HAVs if it is to be used as an AV weapon, this requires you to output a massive amount of damage, during a short period of time. Due to this, I believe the Plasma Cannon should only take 2-3 shots to dispatch an HAV. This put its TTK somewhere between 6-12 seconds, not unreasonable, considering the risk and/or skill required to get a kill.


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XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 881	Posted - 2014.01.18 20:22:00 - [1] - Quote INTRODUCTION Hello, First off I want to start by saying that I am truely confused about this next quote: Quote: We canGÇÖt see any way to easily improve the Plasma Cannon against vehicles (its intended role) without making it OP against infantry - CCP logibro Now this leaves me at a bit of a loss. During my time using the plasma cannon and making videos for it, I advocated and, quite frankly ignorantly, kept repeating that the plasma cannon was not, for all intended purposes, an AV weapon. After months of saying it my greatest fears come true. Till now I had not found a single post by CCP saying that the Plasma cannon was for AV. I stayed in my little bubble believing that it was supposed to be a hybrid weapon intended not dominate any purpose but do decently in both. As of aim assist the PLC has gone further and further into the anals of the dust usable weapons vault. In fact, it has decayed so much over time that even the good people of the cannon fever channel rarely use it anymore. My heart was burdened in many matches thinking of how I could make the gun work for anti infantry since no part of my mind could comprehend how this weapon was intended to be mainly for anti-vehicle use. I failed and, to add insult to injury, CCP has made my fear come true; they intended all along for the PLC to be an AV weapon. As of now, CCP will have no problem making it an AV weapon without making it OP against infantry if they take into consideration the steps below that I have thought thoroughly about and, it would truly lighten my heart see implemented to make this weapon as glorious as I first deemed it when it was passable against infantry but now against vehicles. FEEDBACK Since the plasma Cannon is intended to be an AV weapon, the fix is simple. Hopefully the foregoing list will help the Dev's fully understand how the weapon is used and how it will be affected by each and every suggested change; helping in the transition from ineffective to powerfully balanced. Change it from light to heavy: While I know, or again ignorantly think, ccp wants to make a racial variant for all av weaponry in the light section, the plasma cannon does not fit that description. Light AV should be easy to use and somewhat lacking in power like the swarm launcher. The plasma cannon is extremely difficult to use and no extra power is given to it because of it. Making it a heavy weapon will add the drawback of being extremely difficult to use as well as being in a mobility impaired suit. This will add extra drawbacks so that we can now add the needed buff to it. Change the direct damage: The direct damage of the plasma cannon is too low for a weapon requiring immense amount of skill and patience. A total of 5 seconds in between shots (3.5s for reload, 1s post fire pause and .45 second charge time) makes the weapons rate of fire more akin to the breach forge gun than it does any other weapon in the game. Hence this suggestion. Make the direct damage of the plasma cannon the same as a breach forge gun. The skill needed to use, the RoF, the range of 199 meters, being in a heavy suit and being mediocre against infantry makes it be balanced enough to warrant such increase in direct damage. There are few suits that would withstand a direct shot from a plasma cannon and direct hits are few and far between making this change not affect the current power of the weapon against infantry. This I believe is the simplest way of balancing this weapon without making it any more powerful versus infantry but increasing the effectiveness of the weapon versus vehicles. This in no way makes the weapon overpowered because of all the drawback that it has already. By not buffing splash damage, we maintain it's slight usefulness against infantry without making it overpowered against them. making it a heavy weapon further increases the drawback of using it as well as making it not able to pursue vehicles without further use of assets. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 881	Posted - 2014.01.18 20:23:00 - [2] - Quote reserved Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 881	Posted - 2014.01.18 20:23:00 - [3] - Quote reserved Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 882	Posted - 2014.01.18 20:40:00 - [4] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Wow. I admire your bravery. I have to disagree however. The Plasma Cannon doesn't belong in the Heavy Class. The position of Gallente Heavy weapon should go to some sort of Flame(Plasma)thrower. The Amarr Heavy weapon should be the Sheild-based Heavy AV weapon. The needed code and animation assets to make uch a weapon would be heavy on the hands of CCP. They need to get the game balanced, as they see it, before making any new mechanics as the one you have mentioned. Remember that there will always be room for two sets of Light and heavy weapon which are categorized in Anti-infantry (your idea) and Anti-vehicle (my idea with the PLC) I like your idea but, like I said, this post is intended for AV in which case they still have room to make the weapon that you visualize. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 882	Posted - 2014.01.18 20:57:00 - [5] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Wow. I admire your bravery. I have to disagree however. The Plasma Cannon doesn't belong in the Heavy Class. The position of Gallente Heavy weapon should go to some sort of Flame(Plasma)thrower. The Amarr Heavy weapon should be the Sheild-based Heavy AV weapon. The needed code and animation assets to make uch a weapon would be heavy on the hands of CCP. They need to get the game balanced, as they see it, before making any new mechanics as the one you have mentioned. Remember that there will always be room for two sets of Light and heavy weapon which are categorized in Anti-infantry (your idea) and Anti-vehicle (my idea with the PLC) I like your idea but, like I said, this post is intended for AV in which case they still have room to make the weapon that you visualize. I don't think it will be anytime soon that Heavies will get 8 Weapons. 2-3 years at best. I would rather see them get their proper weapons rather than shoehorn the Plasma Cannon into their suits. The Plasma Cannon doesn't even look like a heavy weapon. No more like a heavy weapon than Swarm Launchers do, at least. I disagree. The plasma cannon does not differ much in size from a forge gun. The change to the PLC is coming. Weather you like it or not CCP has already stated they are working on ways to balance it. It wont be shoehorning it to the heavy if it's a proper needed and already planned for balance. Like I said, CCP is already working on balancing the Plasma Cannon already. This change will not take time from their hand it will actually save them time. I understand you disagree but I'm pretty sure you can make another topic about feedback and the need to add other heavy weapons. This post is made for the balancing of the plasma cannon and if you have different ideas on how to fix the plasma cannon you are much welcome to share them and the logic behind them. Till then please refrain from cluttering this post please. Your ideas and concerns are valid but like I said. You have the freedom to make a whole post sharing your views and ideas on the subject matter of the need for other heavy weapons. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 882	Posted - 2014.01.18 21:11:00 - [6] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I don't understand why they can't just buff the direct damage while keeping everything else the same (most noticeably splash damage and RoF). That way the PLC would become more powerful against vehicles while not becoming overpowered against infantry. Does anyone have an idea why this wouldn't work? I understand what you mean but, I think that simply buffing direct damage a bit won't do the trick since it will just slightly make it better which would still have it at the lowest part of the spectrum on power vs difficulty of use. Since the weapon is so difficult to use and it's rate of fire is already the same as the breach forge gun, it leaves just one viable or worthwhile option. Making it have the same damage as the breach forge gun. Since that implies almost doubling the damage, but still maintaining mobility, it is then prudent to change it to the heavy category to further impede it's mobility and warrant such an increase in power. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 882	Posted - 2014.01.18 21:19:00 - [7] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Okay. Back to the topic at hand then. Sorry for derailing How do we balance the Plasma Cannon? The way I see it, so long as it always has a long reload, is single fire, and the projectile flies in an arc; it won't be OP against infantry. It honestly doesn't need any more drawbacks, it already has more than any other weapon in the game(this is another reason I think putting it on heavy frames wouldn't be right). We could however, just tweak some of its stats to make it more favorable against vehicles, and less favorable against Infantry. Lowering its Splash, and increasing it's Direct Damage would work, and is probably the best option if we put any faith into Occam's Razor . Another solution would be to increase its projectile speed, decrease it's direct damage, and give it a strong damage bonus against vehicles. I think this would be a bit more reinforcing of its roles than the other option, but is also a bit harder to balance. I agree in a sense that increasing direct damage would benefit the PLC greatly. On the other hand increasing the damage to the levels necessary to make the power vs difficulty of use viable leave a big chunk of balance issues unattended. Having that much power on a scout suit that can move very quickly around the match will have the vehicle community crying for a nerf and the cycle of nerf buff, nerf buff will start. As a PLC user, making the weapon easier to use is never an option. Dumbing it down so it can become the next FOTM is not the answer and the complexity and difficulty of use should remain the same. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 882	Posted - 2014.01.18 21:20:00 - [8] - Quote Denn Maell wrote: Personally, I Think that either the PLC needs some kind of Vehicle Lockon(like swarms) or extend the splash damage to a decent Flux Nade. It won't be OP against infantry because of its 1 shot clip and massive reload time (and then a charge up). Plasma is supposed to be moderately better against shields (an anti-shield AV is something we're missing). I suppose the changes I'm suggesting would make the PLC more of a mortar system than a shoulder mounted RPG (as it is apparently designed to be). Changing it to a mortar system would also benefit from some kind of range finding UI. CCP wants this weapon to be a Anti vehicle weapon. Increasing the splash radius will actually make the weapon better against infantry which is not what CCP desires and fall away from the difficulty aspect of the weapon. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 883	Posted - 2014.01.18 21:41:00 - [9] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: You have to remember that after a certain point, increasing its direct damage has no affect on infantry, because it will always be a OHK(which isn't unbalanced, considering the difficulty of direct hits). Giving it comparable DPS to prenerf Swarms(perhaps a bit more,to compensate for skill requirements) would allow it to successfully be used as an AV weapon, but its AP uses would remain unaffected. You are completely correct but he was talking about added splash radius. I think everyne agrees that direct damage needs to be buffed and splash should stay the same but it's to what extent should direct damage be buffed. Due to difficulty of use and rate of fire the plasma cannon deserves a damage increase to the same levels of the breach for gun since its very difficult to get more than one shot in a row on a vehicle that is running away. But as I said before, with the mobility of scouts, if kept in the light weaponry section, the weapon would be too powerful if not overpowered. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 883	Posted - 2014.01.18 21:58:00 - [10] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: You have to remember that after a certain point, increasing its direct damage has no affect on infantry, because it will always be a OHK(which isn't unbalanced, considering the difficulty of direct hits). Giving it comparable DPS to prenerf Swarms(perhaps a bit more,to compensate for skill requirements) would allow it to successfully be used as an AV weapon, but its AP uses would remain unaffected. You are completely correct but he was talking about added splash radius. I think everyne agrees that direct damage needs to be buffed and splash should stay the same but it's to what extent should direct damage be buffed. Due to difficulty of use and rate of fire the plasma cannon deserves a damage increase to the same levels of the breach for gun since its very difficult to get more than one shot in a row on a vehicle that is running away. But as I said before, with the mobility of scouts, if kept in the light weaponry section, the weapon would be too powerful if not overpowered. I personally think is should do more damage than a breach FG, considering the at the FG can reach out further, and its projectile flies in a much more... favorable path. The Plasma Cannon practically requires the user to be up close and personal with HAVs if it is to be used as an AV weapon, this requires you to output a massive amount of damage, during a short period of time. Due to this, I believe the Plasma Cannon should only take 2-3 shots to dispatch an HAV. This put its TTK somewhere between 6-12 seconds, not unreasonable, considering the risk and/or skill required to get a kill. completely agree. How this is implemented is another issue. I hope we can give CCP some good ideas Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 883	Posted - 2014.01.19 06:12:00 - [11] - Quote Komodo Jones wrote: I've suggested this several times but I haven't gotten much reply to it, how would you feel about removing the reload function altogether, putting all of the ammo in 1 clip, and just putting a cooldown on it so you can't fire it more than once every 3.5 seconds or however long the reload time is. Not much of a change but it just prevents the interruption that you would get from doing anything other than reloading, you can switch your gun, sprint, jump off a building, and the gun will passively cooldown in the background. The forge gun was intended to be anti vehicle but I've used it way more for infantry, I don't see why they don't find a way to make it just a better all around gun and let people decide how to use it. I dont think changing the mechanism is the answer buffing damage and re categorizing should be enough IMO Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 883	Posted - 2014.01.19 07:55:00 - [12] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: Would having 2 shots in your clip really make things bad? maybe 3 shots? Boost direct damage, keep splash radius and damage the same. having more than one shot will simply make the weapon completely OP against infantry. As things stand with my skill level I can 2 shot almost any suit. The 1 shot is there to keep the weapon balanced. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 892	Posted - 2014.01.19 21:40:00 - [13] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Fix the reload animation so as not to block my view of the impact on all but the longest shots. Let me throw a nade while the shot is in the air, and perhaps a better reticule and some feedback telling me I actually hit the target. This is a very important and yet overlooked problem. thanks for reminding me of it. It's a pain in the ********* to see what I'm hitting at long range. P.S. The word t e s t i c l e s is censored but I could have said balls Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 892	Posted - 2014.01.19 21:44:00 - [14] - Quote Texs Red wrote: I know this has been suggested before but I don't see any of you mentioning it, as I recall CCP liked the idea too. Burn damage. Keep the current damage, then on a direct hit the weapon dealing that damage again over 5 seconds. Then while aiming down sights you get a trajectory arc and it actually becomes modestly useful at ranges other than touching distance. It is very effective vs shield tanks as the burn damage prevents them from passively recharging and is modest vs armor tanks who can rep through it anyway. It is limited by it's single shot clip, limited ammo pool, travel time, and trajectory arc. CCP is taking burn damage into consideration but CCP does not know how to fix the PLC without making it OP vs infantry. Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 893	Posted - 2014.01.19 22:29:00 - [15] - Quote Texs Red wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Texs Red wrote: I know this has been suggested before but I don't see any of you mentioning it, as I recall CCP liked the idea too. Burn damage. Keep the current damage, then on a direct hit the weapon dealing that damage again over 5 seconds. Then while aiming down sights you get a trajectory arc and it actually becomes modestly useful at ranges other than touching distance. It is very effective vs shield tanks as the burn damage prevents them from passively recharging and is modest vs armor tanks who can rep through it anyway. It is limited by it's single shot clip, limited ammo pool, travel time, and trajectory arc. CCP is taking burn damage into consideration but CCP does not know how to fix the PLC without making it OP vs infantry. It isn't OP vs infantry now and by making the only change the adding burn damage only to direct hits it's effectiveness as an AV weapon increases drastically. A direct hit will almost always kill infantry anyway, regardless of burn damage. Although I do admit it would be amusing if it left a "burn zone" on the ground that deals damage to anyone who walks over hit (but only as much and for as long as it would normally deal to a vehicle). So it would then gain modest area denial abilities. They said something about it in the bi-weekly topic discussion review Plasma Cannon Advocate For every niche there is a Rifle